Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment

[JoyE]

One of the first commands God gave after the Flood was for capital punishment.
[Gen 9:5-6 NASB20] – I certainly will require your lifeblood; from every animal I will require it. And from every person, from every man as his brother I will require the life of a person. Whoever sheds human blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made mankind.

Then He clearly warned:
[Num 35:33 NASB20] – So you shall not defile the land in which you live; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

[mike]

One of the first commands God gave after the Flood was for capital punishment.
[Gen 9:5-6 NASB20] – I certainly will require your lifeblood; from every animal I will require it. And from every person, from every man as his brother I will require the life of a person. Whoever sheds human blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made mankind.

Then He clearly warned:
[Num 35:33 NASB20] – So you shall not defile the land in which you live; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

Yes, of course. But just as a reminder, the thread topic is Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment. As far as what the Old Testament says, Anabaptists (at least those who are conservative theologically) have no problem accepting what the Old Testament says about God's commands relating to capital punishment, war, retribution, and so forth. But we believe that Jesus came to usher in the kingdom of God in a new and different way that excludes believers wielding the sword. This doesn't mean the Old Testament isn't true or that God is a whole different being now. It means that God has revealed much more of himself in Jesus, showing us what he always wanted his kingdom and people to be. The Old Testament represents a flawed picture indeed, and shows God working with a people who failed to be faithful and rebelled at every turn. And the existence of the state and the power of the sword today still represents God working with a humanity that is fallen and needs some sort of restraint. But the church, the kingdom of God, is the new humanity, where peace and nonresistance is the way.

[ken_sylvania]

Let the one who is without sin carry out the punishment.

Very good answer.

Its interesting to me how some take Jesus words on forgiveness and loving your enemies so literally. But then when there's scripture about His justice, wrath, and judgement suddenly its all about allegory, metaphors, and types.

Punishment and love aren't necessarily contrary to one another.

Jesus told us to forgive and to love our enemies. He didn't tell us to be wrathful or judgemental.
We should do what he told his followers to do rather than what the Scriptures tell us that God will do.

[JohnH]

So no punishment? Government shouldn't do anything is your opinion? Murders just can walk?

Let the one who is without sin carry out the punishment.

Very good answer.

Someone has to carry out the punishment, though.

Some Anabaptists seem to believe that punishment shouldn't happen for violent offences. I find this very twisted and evil, such as the people who said someone like Jeriah Mast shouldn't be punished, and that it is un-Christlike to call for him to be punished.

I simply disagree. I think people like that need to be punished, and that government is instituted to do so. I think calling for rapists and murderers to run loose is wrong.

[Nomad]

Very good answer.

Its interesting to me how some take Jesus words on forgiveness and loving your enemies so literally. But then when there's scripture about His justice, wrath, and judgement suddenly its all about allegory, metaphors, and types.

Punishment and love aren't necessarily contrary to one another.

Jesus told us to forgive and to love our enemies. He didn't tell us to be wrathful or judgemental.
We should do what he told his followers to do rather than what the Scriptures tell us that God will do.

I'm not promoting "wrathful" or "judgemental". I'm promoting what the Bible calls the governing authorities to do:

Romans 13:1-4
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist have been appointed by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists that authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. [3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of that authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; [4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

[JohnH]

But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.[/b]

And a lot of Anabaptists do things that are evil, and then plead for mercy and quote Bible verses when someone like me says that, yes, they need to plead guilty and accept the sentence handed down.

I've been called "unforgiving", "vengeful", and been told I would forfeit my salvation if I didn't retract my statements made about a man who was cheating on his wife. I refused to do so. It was not a matter of forgiveness - I simply wanted him to stop having his affair and repent, due to my concern for his soul. Adultery isn't illegal in America anymore, but sexual assault still is, and eventually he upgraded himself to doing that (complete with a recorded confession given to the police). There has still been no repentance, and the same people still defend it, and claim I had some kind of grievance, offence, etc. because I won't retract what I said.

For an even more disgusting display of this, behold what happened with Jeriah Mast. I think those around him committed the greater evil: telling his former victims that if they dared to talk to the police about what he'd done, they were "unforgiving" and that God wouldn't forgive them. Bible verses quoted in sermons about "vengeance is mine, I will repay" meaning a Christian should never report to the authorities when a crime like that happens.

I think the Bible speaks a bit differently. In the New Testament, Jesus said it would be better for a millstone to be tied around such a person's neck and to be cast into the sea.

[Nomad]

One of the first commands God gave after the Flood was for capital punishment.
[Gen 9:5-6 NASB20] – I certainly will require your lifeblood; from every animal I will require it. And from every person, from every man as his brother I will require the life of a person. Whoever sheds human blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made mankind.

Then He clearly warned:
[Num 35:33 NASB20] – So you shall not defile the land in which you live; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

Yes, of course. But just as a reminder, the thread topic is Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment. As far as what the Old Testament says, Anabaptists (at least those who are conservative theologically) have no problem accepting what the Old Testament says about God's commands relating to capital punishment, war, retribution, and so forth. But we believe that Jesus came to usher in the kingdom of God in a new and different way that excludes believers wielding the sword. This doesn't mean the Old Testament isn't true or that God is a whole different being now. It means that God has revealed much more of himself in Jesus, showing us what he always wanted his kingdom and people to be. The Old Testament represents a flawed picture indeed, and shows God working with a people who failed to be faithful and rebelled at every turn. And the existence of the state and the power of the sword today still represents God working with a humanity that is fallen and needs some sort of restraint. But the church, the kingdom of God, is the new humanity, where peace and nonresistance is the way.

I disagree. I think the practice set forth in the Noahic Covenant of "life for life" is applicable today and given by God for governments to carry out as a restraining force against evil. Its not by chance, I believe, that chapter 10 follows chapter 9 as the "table of nations". God established borders and nations following these commands.

I see a distinction between the Mosaic and Noahic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant has been fulfilled but the Noahic has not...I dont believe that scripture promotes that all the instruction prior to the cross is now wiped. The only scripture in the NT that speaks of fulfillment is in reference to the "Law" not the entire OT.

[mike]

One of the first commands God gave after the Flood was for capital punishment.
[Gen 9:5-6 NASB20] – I certainly will require your lifeblood; from every animal I will require it. And from every person, from every man as his brother I will require the life of a person. Whoever sheds human blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made mankind.

Then He clearly warned:
[Num 35:33 NASB20] – So you shall not defile the land in which you live; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

Yes, of course. But just as a reminder, the thread topic is Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment. As far as what the Old Testament says, Anabaptists (at least those who are conservative theologically) have no problem accepting what the Old Testament says about God's commands relating to capital punishment, war, retribution, and so forth. But we believe that Jesus came to usher in the kingdom of God in a new and different way that excludes believers wielding the sword. This doesn't mean the Old Testament isn't true or that God is a whole different being now. It means that God has revealed much more of himself in Jesus, showing us what he always wanted his kingdom and people to be. The Old Testament represents a flawed picture indeed, and shows God working with a people who failed to be faithful and rebelled at every turn. And the existence of the state and the power of the sword today still represents God working with a humanity that is fallen and needs some sort of restraint. But the church, the kingdom of God, is the new humanity, where peace and nonresistance is the way.

I disagree. I think the practice set forth in the Noahic Covenant of "life for life" is applicable today and given by God for governments to carry out as a restraining force against evil. Its not by chance, I believe, that chapter 10 follows chapter 9 as the "table of nations". God established borders and nations following these commands.

I see a distinction between the Mosaic and Noahic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant has been fulfilled but the Noahic has not...I dont believe that scripture promotes that all the instruction prior to the cross is now wiped. The only scripture in the NT that speaks of fulfillment is in reference to the "Law" not the entire OT.

Are you an Anabaptist?

[Nomad]

Yes, of course. But just as a reminder, the thread topic is Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment. As far as what the Old Testament says, Anabaptists (at least those who are conservative theologically) have no problem accepting what the Old Testament says about God's commands relating to capital punishment, war, retribution, and so forth. But we believe that Jesus came to usher in the kingdom of God in a new and different way that excludes believers wielding the sword. This doesn't mean the Old Testament isn't true or that God is a whole different being now. It means that God has revealed much more of himself in Jesus, showing us what he always wanted his kingdom and people to be. The Old Testament represents a flawed picture indeed, and shows God working with a people who failed to be faithful and rebelled at every turn. And the existence of the state and the power of the sword today still represents God working with a humanity that is fallen and needs some sort of restraint. But the church, the kingdom of God, is the new humanity, where peace and nonresistance is the way.

I disagree. I think the practice set forth in the Noahic Covenant of "life for life" is applicable today and given by God for governments to carry out as a restraining force against evil. Its not by chance, I believe, that chapter 10 follows chapter 9 as the "table of nations". God established borders and nations following these commands.

I see a distinction between the Mosaic and Noahic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant has been fulfilled but the Noahic has not...I dont believe that scripture promotes that all the instruction prior to the cross is now wiped. The only scripture in the NT that speaks of fulfillment is in reference to the "Law" not the entire OT.

Are you an Anabaptist?

Yes.

[barnhart]

Let the one who is without sin carry out the punishment.

Very good answer.

Punishment and love aren't necessarily contrary to one another.

I agree.