Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment

[Szdfan]

I am bamboozled by this thread. I see a lot of supposed Anabaptists taking a fundamentalist Protestant view

The arguments such as what to do about a crazed killer com0letely change the subject. Yes, government is ordained by God. It does a LOT of things that should not be part of a Christians life. Hence the Anabaptist view ypu do not serve on the government.

Just like they do not run a bar, or casino, or gun store, or lots of things that are legal.

Why is it hard to understand that just as the Christian does not partake of doing capital punishment, nor sitting on a jury, they equally do not condemn government for having trials or even executions?

Separation is a keystone of Anabaptist thought

Are you saying that Anabaptists should not have opinions about what the government does or doesn’t do?

[barnhart]

The best argument against capital punishment today (in my view) is prudential: the real possibility of executing someone who is innocent, and inequality in sentencing - that is, the disproportionate application of the death penalty to those who are ethnic minorities and/or poor.

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

[joshuabgood]

The best argument against capital punishment today (in my view) is prudential: the real possibility of executing someone who is innocent, and inequality in sentencing - that is, the disproportionate application of the death penalty to those who are ethnic minorities and/or poor.

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

Right...or interest/usury.

[barnhart]

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

Right...or interest/usury.

Yes.

Another parallel might be an unquestioned embrace of just war because earlier covenants required it while downplay the mandate to welcome to foreigner by adding layers of restrictions. In the end it becomes "we can kill who we think should die and welcome who we want."

[barnhart]

I am bamboozled by this thread. I see a lot of supposed Anabaptists taking a fundamentalist Protestant view

The arguments such as what to do about a crazed killer com0letely change the subject. Yes, government is ordained by God. It does a LOT of things that should not be part of a Christians life. Hence the Anabaptist view ypu do not serve on the government.

Just like they do not run a bar, or casino, or gun store, or lots of things that are legal.

Why is it hard to understand that just as the Christian does not partake of doing capital punishment, nor sitting on a jury, they equally do not condemn government for having trials or even executions?

Separation is a keystone of Anabaptist thought

Why do you assume those in this conversation don't fall into the Separation category? I'm not convinced the separation is best accomplished by ignorance or silence. From my experience practice without building the underlying philosophy or conviction quickly becomes legalistic.

Godly separation is not easily accomplished or maintained in an interconnected world. What does separation mean when my mortgage is wrapped into complicated financial instruments that finance the oppression of the poor in some distance place or my traditional views on gender and sexuality are used as justification to platform political movements or my respect for the Bible is used to justify wars that are declared just or executions declared righteous.

At what point am I allowed to say I don't actually believe the outcome of that reasoning chain, remove me from the list of supportive reasoning.

"Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure." -1Timothy

[Valerie]

The best argument against capital punishment today (in my view) is prudential: the real possibility of executing someone who is innocent, and inequality in sentencing - that is, the disproportionate application of the death penalty to those who are ethnic minorities and/or poor.

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

The Churches and the government overwhelmingly help the poor in our country. As a cashier just for a small example, I process sales of an abundant amount of people using EBT cards to pay for their food (and it covers way more than healthy food I see). The EBT cards doesn’t cover cleaning supplies, toiletries, etc. For that we have pantries where people donate all those kinds of items and people on lesser incomes can go pick those up for free. You could be poor in our country and live quite comfortably by all the help that’s provided by the government, churches and good hearted people that donate. Is that anything similar to letting the poor come and get the edges of the fields to take home?

[JohnH]

If capital punishment is so terrible, why on earth did God put it in the law?

If, as stated in Hebrews, the new covenant is much better than the old covenant, why would anybody want to go back and implement the old covenant?

Well, the New Covenant doesn’t lay out what laws a civil government should or shouldn’t have.

[JohnH]

The best argument against capital punishment today (in my view) is prudential: the real possibility of executing someone who is innocent, and inequality in sentencing - that is, the disproportionate application of the death penalty to those who are ethnic minorities and/or poor.

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

Those are things the principles of which any just government should also follow, as I bleat about rather regularly on this forum.

(Most US states, or at least mine, does cancel debts after 50 or so years. I think mine is 15 actually. America offers a lot of food to poor people, although I can say I’ve heard plenty of conservative Anabaptists gripe and moan about how terrible giving food stamps to poor people is, including a regional director of Blessings of Hope.)

[ken_sylvania]

The best argument against capital punishment today (in my view) is prudential: the real possibility of executing someone who is innocent, and inequality in sentencing - that is, the disproportionate application of the death penalty to those who are ethnic minorities and/or poor.

I would say that if the Mosaic law is used as a rationale for the use of the death penalty, then the evidence standard for conviction under the Mosaic law ought to also be implemented.

And possibly be held to the list of infractions the mosaic law lays out for capital punishment. What is more common is to use the concept from Moses as a justification for whatever society has already decided to do. It's a little like using "thou shalt no steal" as justification for private property and capitalism while ignoring the year of Jubilee and the cancellation of debt or the laws that allow the poor access to the edges of the harvest.

Yes, exactly. And the ease with which we do that should frighten us.

[joshuabgood]

If capital punishment is so terrible, why on earth did God put it in the law?

If, as stated in Hebrews, the new covenant is much better than the old covenant, why would anybody want to go back and implement the old covenant?

Well, the New Covenant doesn’t lay out what laws a civil government should or shouldn’t have.

The King didn't come to take sides, he came to take over.