Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment

[JohnH]

What does the Bible say about this? What do Anabaptists general believe?

Let's try not to discuss current events. For the sake of discussion, we could restrict our conversation on this topic to pre-1600s era, and disambiguate other topics like racism, slavery, modern incarceration practices, etc. and instead focus on the question at hand.

[mike]

As an Anabaptist, I believe God has instituted the civil government, which uses the sword and at some level exists for our good, but which operates in a way that is antithetical to the way of Jesus, the way Christians are to live their lives. That's basically it.

Capital punishment is part of the use of the sword. Civil governments have used capital punishment, and probably every other power they possess, unjustly ever since they have existed. This does not appear to change the fact that God has in some way chosen to have these institutions exist. Anabaptists literally felt the edge of the sword from the time the movement began, and yet they continued to believe this reality, because they believed what the New Testament said about government.

Romans 13 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.

[joshuabgood]

As an Anabaptist, I believe God, in his providence, uses civil govt just like he uses rebels/rebellions and the mafia and Philistines and Canaanites and Pharaoh and the Romans. However, none of what they do reflects Jesus or Godliness. Further the Bible says it's not God's will that any should perish and that redemption be had for all. Therefore I lean toward capital punishment being an affront to the will of God that all be redeemed and that none should perish.

[Valerie]

As an Anabaptist, I believe God, in his providence, uses civil govt just like he uses rebels/rebellions and the mafia and Philistines and Canaanites and Pharaoh and the Romans. However, none of what they do reflects Jesus or Godliness. Further the Bible says it's not God's will that any should perish and that redemption be had for all. Therefore I lean toward capital punishment being an affront to the will of God that all be redeemed and that none should perish.

See this to me seems like a misunderstanding in the heart of God and of course it’s His will that all be saved but He also knows that most will not be, and that by their own free will.
I think the Lord through Romans 13 states the “purpose” even if He doesn’t like it-

[JohnH]

As an Anabaptist, I believe God, in his providence, uses civil govt just like he uses rebels/rebellions and the mafia and Philistines and Canaanites and Pharaoh and the Romans. However, none of what they do reflects Jesus or Godliness. Further the Bible says it's not God's will that any should perish and that redemption be had for all. Therefore I lean toward capital punishment being an affront to the will of God that all be redeemed and that none should perish.

I would wonder how you reconcile this with the:

1. God’s decision in the great flood:

2. God’s decision to kill Ananias & Saphira.

3. How an earthly government could cause someone to “perish” against the will of God.

4. How allowing a violent murderer to kill a bunch of people is less of an affront to God than a police officer killing the mass murderer before he can finish the act.

I hope we can respectfully debate these topics.

[Justfiguringitout]

So do you yourself know how to reconcile all this, and still remaining non-violent?

[ken_sylvania]

As an Anabaptist, I believe God, in his providence, uses civil govt just like he uses rebels/rebellions and the mafia and Philistines and Canaanites and Pharaoh and the Romans. However, none of what they do reflects Jesus or Godliness. Further the Bible says it's not God's will that any should perish and that redemption be had for all. Therefore I lean toward capital punishment being an affront to the will of God that all be redeemed and that none should perish.

Do you see Genesis 9:6 as descriptive rather than prescriptive? Or as prescriptive for only that era of time?

When God gave the Law to Moses and included instructions for capital punishment, was he instructing them to do something that would be an affront to his will?

[JohnH]

So do you yourself know how to reconcile all this, and still remaining non-violent?

Because I’m not God. I obey what Jesus tells us to do. I do not consider myself equal to God or Jesus.

[Justfiguringitout]

So do you yourself know how to reconcile all this, and still remaining non-violent?

Because I’m not God. I obey what Jesus tells us to do. I do not consider myself equal to God or Jesus.

What has considering yourself equal to God, or not got to do with my question? Maybe I don't understand you correctly.

You asked this other person how to reconcile his view with the 4 points you mentioned. These are valid points. So I am curious as to what you would say about this as a non-violent anabaptist.

[JohnH]

So do you yourself know how to reconcile all this, and still remaining non-violent?

Because I’m not God. I obey what Jesus tells us to do. I do not consider myself equal to God or Jesus.

What has considering yourself equal to God, or not got to do with my question? Maybe I don't understand you correctly.

You asked this other person how to reconcile his view with the 4 points you mentioned. These are valid points. So I am curious as to what you would say about this as a non-violent anabaptist.

About my points or his?

I would say that since God created us, he can also destroy us, or consign us to eternal punishment. Despite this, God has offered every human being a path to salvation and eternal life. But he doesn’t force anyone to choose it.

Everyone had a chance to repent and join Noah on the ark. Yet only his sons and their dear wives chose to repent and join him. So everyone else perished.

No one is forced to commit capital crimes. It’s a free choice. And the good news is such a person can repent and find eternal life.