Worldliness

[Bootstrap]

There is a lot of wisdom in Matt's post. Many threads on mennonet would be reduced to several posts if there were no private or bespoke word definitions.

And only the Bible gets to define worldly. I don't. Nobody here does.

[Bootstrap]

The implication, of course, is that to be outwardly more conservative or traditionally "plain" is to have less worldliness and thus more Christlikeness; as if the cut of a man's suit, the amount of buttons on his shirt, or the difference between a knee-length skirt and an ankle-length skirt has anything to do with worldliness.

One of my complaints with moderate conservative groups (particularly Amish Mennonites such as Beachys and other similar groups) is their culture concerning conservative Anabaptism tends to be very, very clothing based. I don’t agree with this either.

I do think these things are worldly, and they are all things I got to experience members in the various moderate and fundamental conservative churches around me in Ohio and Pa doing:

- voting, involvement in politics
- watching movies, TV, streaming TV
- listening to Rush Limbaugh and NPR on the radio
- vaping, including encouraging younger youth under 18 to try it
- attending pro or college level sports games and generally being a big fan
- acquiring video game consoles, playing a lot of video games with first person shooting / military themes
- acquiring and carrying handguns and military styled rifles
- drunkenness on beach type vacations

At least some of these may well be symptoms of worldliness, none of these defines what worldliness is. It's like saying I have a headache, there may be many causes, it's just a symptom. Almost nothing in your lists is actually mentioned in the Bible. I worry about creating definitions that differ from the Bible and take on their own authority.

And it's quite possible that someone who is not worldly might do one or more of the things you list in your (much longer and abbreviated here) post. The Bible does not encourage us to judge by the outside of the cup - some things like adultery are clearly symptoms of being worldly, other things are not always symptoms of worldiness.

For anything near borderline, I'm reluctant to judge anyone I am not close to or responsible for. For things like murder, adultery, etc., it may be more clear cut. Public figures are a special case in a democracy for those who do vote, I think, because we need to make such judgements to decide how to vote.

Often, repeating long lists about what Those Other People do that are sinful and worldly can serve as a way to avoid wrestling with our own hearts or being reflective about our own areas of worldliness - those lists can themselves serve a worldly function, putting others down so that we can seem better than they are. That's why the Bible has so much to say about speech.

[Thomas_muntzer]

Other than the vaping, I discussed these things with the various members doing these things and heard all manner of justifications, including citing that the Bible doesn’t say you can’t do these things; it actually being morally justified to do so; and concern I might be falling into “legalism”.

Regarding the specific issue of vaping, i think there is direct biblical support for abstaining from it

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

If my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it is my duty to care for it and avoid any type of carcinogenic substance—such as vaping products, alcohol, or the use of asbestos in construction.

As for legalism, I think that warrants a post of its own; I’m not sure where to draw the line between legalism and the healthy boundaries that help us improve our walk with Christ. I would draw the line where there are rules that directly contradict the Bible (such as mandatory celibacy in the Catholic Church or the ban on blood transfusions among Jehovah's Witnesses) or when adhering to those rules causes us to lose the gifts of the Holy Spirit

[Neto]

Any thing one might do specifically in order to curry favor with God is, in a sense, worldly, because it is based on a self-centered works mentality.

[JohnH]

Other than the vaping, I discussed these things with the various members doing these things and heard all manner of justifications, including citing that the Bible doesn’t say you can’t do these things; it actually being morally justified to do so; and concern I might be falling into “legalism”.

Regarding the specific issue of vaping, i think there is direct biblical support for abstaining from it

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This isn't a direct scripture verse against vaping, although I would agree it teaches us not to do such things - and many other things that the fundamental-conservative would complain I am "making up extra biblical rules" about.

[JayP]

Wow, the conclusions folks make. Explain how use of alcohol is forbidden?

Or how the Catholic practice of celibacy is either unscriptural or forbidden. Note, I am not arguing celibacy is REQUIRED, but if a man is not married should he not also be celibate?

[JohnH]

Wow, the conclusions folks make. Explain how use of alcohol is forbidden?

Or how the Catholic practice of celibacy is either unscriptural or forbidden. Note, I am not arguing celibacy is REQUIRED, but if a man is not married should he not also be celibate?

Here's a few I would hope even Catholics could agree with me on:

- vaping, including encouraging younger youth under 18 to try it

It's entirely illegal to supply vaping or tobacco materials to someone under 18 (or under 21, in my state, and most others these days)

- drunkenness on beach type vacations

The Bible teaches against drunkenness. In addition, it's also illegal in the U.S. for people under 21 to acquire alcohol, and things like public intoxication and so forth are also illegal.

Those who concern themselves with the "letter of the law" pointed out to me that the drunknness on a beach type vacation for a 16 year old who had become a church member a few months prior was in Mexico and therefore technically legal (it isn't, it's 18, but that's beside the point). I simply do not have the same mindset as the type of plain people who think this kind of thing is OK, then report back to church the next Sunday in a cape dress and a kapp.

[JayP]

There should probably be a thread on each individual item for each case is different.
I am not suggesting one must partake of alcohol and clearly the Bible speaks against abuse of it

But for any group to flat out ban it, as a condition of membership seems to me to smack of man made rules. Clearly Jesus turned the water to wine. I hold my desire to laugh when some try word trickery to explain this was not really wine

I also am quite accepting with a group establishing functional rules about how they will live that a brotherhood should decide as a group, to eliminate alcohol for the protection of the weaker brother. Just do not claim it’s scripturally
THE right call or condemn those that do.

It is no different than a gun. No Christian has a gun to kill people. But we are not asking those that hunt to put them away

[JohnH]

There should probably be a thread on each individual item for each case is different.
I am not suggesting one must partake of alcohol and clearly the Bible speaks against abuse of it

Yes, agreed.

But for any group to flat out ban it, as a condition of membership seems to me to smack of man made rules. Clearly Jesus turned the water to wine. I hold my desire to laugh when some try word trickery to explain this was not really wine

I also agree, and that's why I don't think a blanket ban can be justified out of scripture. (However, a group could agree as a brotherhood to simply not partake of any alcohol out of respect to weaker brethren, which I think would be entirely scriptural.)

In my own church group, having 1 drink every now and then would not be considered a sin, although it might be a little socially disgraceful. Having two would be very questionable. Drunkenness is considered outright sin.

pquote]I also am quite accepting with a group establishing functional rules about how they will live that a brotherhood should decide as a group, to eliminate alcohol for the protection of the weaker brother. Just do not claim it’s scripturally
THE right call or condemn those that do.[/quote]

Yes. I have found the people who claim "wine" in the NT means "grape juice" a bit absurd... as if the Bible really says "Do not associate with one given to much grape juice?"

It is no different than a gun. No Christian has a gun to kill people. But we are not asking those that hunt to put them away

Well, I often wonder what kind of "hunting" certain plain Anabaptists are doing with firearms that aren't even legal for hunting purposes. What's a plain Anabaptist doing in Ohio with an AR-15, or a semiauto handgun in PA?

[Bootstrap]

Other than the vaping, I discussed these things with the various members doing these things and heard all manner of justifications, including citing that the Bible doesn’t say you can’t do these things; it actually being morally justified to do so; and concern I might be falling into “legalism”.

Regarding the specific issue of vaping, i think there is direct biblical support for abstaining from it

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

If my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it is my duty to care for it and avoid any type of carcinogenic substance—such as vaping products, alcohol, or the use of asbestos in construction.

As for legalism, I think that warrants a post of its own; I’m not sure where to draw the line between legalism and the healthy boundaries that help us improve our walk with Christ. I would draw the line where there are rules that directly contradict the Bible (such as mandatory celibacy in the Catholic Church or the ban on blood transfusions among Jehovah's Witnesses) or when adhering to those rules causes us to lose the gifts of the Holy Spirit

In context, though, that verse is talking about men having sex with temple prostitutes. If you read it out of context, you can apply it to anything from living a sedentary lifestyle to overeating to choosing not to wear nice clothes and makeup to honor the temple of the Holy Ghost like they did the Jewish temple.

A text without a context is only a pretext.