Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[eccentric_rambler]

Did anyone read the data I mentioned in a previous post? [See below these new comments.]

I was shocked to see that 25% of people who were falsely accused and later exonerated due to DNA test results had confessed, and 10% had pleaded guilty. (Please read below, in case my wording here might be giving the wrong impression about the data.)

What are we to conclude from this sort of results? Do we just assume that they were so guilty in other cases that they actually didn't know that they were innocent of the specific charges that brought them into court? Did they have so little confidence that they would be believed that they just automatically gave up confronting the false charges against them?

Plea bargains. A power imbalance between the state and the defendant leading to patently unjust results. Just because they call it the justice system doesn't mean it is.

[Judas Maccabeus]

A very sad case of this happened in the church where I grew up. A minister in a church in another state was accused by his daughter (then an adult) of abuse when she was a child. The man lost his position in the church and ended up moving from his home community to ours. He lived there for a number of years before leaving to serve for years with his wife with a book ministry. Some time after he left our community, we heard that his daughter came forward and said the allegations of abuse came out of sessions with a therapist of some sort, and it did not actually happen. But it was far too late, the damage had been done.

Right. Which is why we need to source information from places other than the victims.

In other words, fit our kids w a body worn camera??? How many cases involve just a perp and the victim? I betcha it's the majority of them but I will let Ann speak to this. Licensed therapists fill a vital role in finding out what occurred.

SOME use discredited methodologies to "recover lost memories". This can reach to the absurd. Look up the "MCMartin Preschool case" if you want an eyeful. Just because someone has a license does not confer inerrancy. With 40 years of leadership experience, most of it NOT in Mennonite circles, I simply take anything they say with considerable skepticism, particularly "Jay Adams" type counselors. If a therapist tries to treat anyone without sending them to an MD, preferably an Internist first, RUN.

[barnhart]

Did anyone read the data I mentioned in a previous post? [See below these new comments.]

I was shocked to see that 25% of people who were falsely accused and later exonerated due to DNA test results had confessed, and 10% had pleaded guilty. (Please read below, in case my wording here might be giving the wrong impression about the data.)

What are we to conclude from this sort of results? Do we just assume that they were so guilty in other cases that they actually didn't know that they were innocent of the specific charges that brought them into court? Did they have so little confidence that they would be believed that they just automatically gave up confronting the false charges against them?

Plea bargains. A power imbalance between the state and the defendant leading to patently unjust results. Just because they call it the justice system doesn't mean it is.

Sometimes people feel the system is do broken they loose hope of justice and just act pragmatically to reduce their sentences as much as possible within their power.

[eccentric_rambler]

Sometimes people feel the system is do broken they loose hope of justice and just act pragmatically to reduce their sentences as much as possible within their power.

I don't think it's just feeling the system is broken. It's a human system and subject to failure. Sometimes a plea bargain is the better choice, given the evidence and quality of representation, even if the defendant is innocent. It's a horrible thing, but ...

[anndet92]

Sometimes people feel the system is do broken they loose hope of justice and just act pragmatically to reduce their sentences as much as possible within their power.

I don't think it's just feeling the system is broken. It's a human system and subject to failure. Sometimes a plea bargain is the better choice, given the evidence and quality of representation, even if the defendant is innocent. It's a horrible thing, but ...

I’ve also seen cases in which perps will take a plea deal in order to try to control the narrative. Going through a full blown trial in which a jury determines the outcome would mean even more of their lives being scrutinized. So they take a plea deal, plead guilty, but continue telling everyone they are innocent.

The justice system is broken. I’ve long given up seeing justice in this life for my own abuse story. I’ve went through all the legal avenues that I know of. I’ve spent close to $15,000 in therapy and I am finally able to live without that constant fear hanging over my head. Of course, I have bad days. Days where the anxiety hits me like a train. But there’s been a level of wholeness I didn’t know was possible.

Moving away from the rapists, my family, and leaving the culture has given me the space to heal that I desperately needed. I never wanted to leave, but I had to for my own mental health and my safety. I don’t know what the future holds, but Jesus has been kind to me. He keeps showing up in ways I cannot deny.

[Soloist]

Right. Which is why we need to source information from places other than the victims.

In other words, fit our kids w a body worn camera??? How many cases involve just a perp and the victim? I betcha it's the majority of them but I will let Ann speak to this. Licensed therapists fill a vital role in finding out what occurred.

SOME use discredited methodologies to "recover lost memories". This can reach to the absurd. Look up the "MCMartin Preschool case" if you want an eyeful. Just because someone has a license does not confer inerrancy. With 40 years of leadership experience, most of it NOT in Mennonite circles, I simply take anything they say with considerable skepticism, particularly "Jay Adams" type counselors. If a therapist tries to treat anyone without sending them to an MD, preferably an Internist first, RUN.

Wife: actually, I almost went to a therapist once and was in their introductory discussion with me, hubby, and a few other people, and he was talking about the different methods they did, including asking people rapid fire questions like “What’s your favorite food? what’s your favorite color? Do you like dogs? Did your dad do things to you as a child?” and I decided not to return. I thought that seemed really messed up because you could totally accidentally give the wrong answer.

[JohnH]

I’ve also seen cases in which perps will take a plea deal in order to try to control the narrative. Going through a full blown trial in which a jury determines the outcome would mean even more of their lives being scrutinized. So they take a plea deal, plead guilty, but continue telling everyone they are innocent.

The situation Neto described, however, was people where DNA evidence proved they were not perpetrators at all.

The justice system is broken. I’ve long given up seeing justice in this life for my own abuse story. I’ve went through all the legal avenues that I know of. I’ve spent close to $15,000 in therapy and I am finally able to live without that constant fear hanging over my head. Of course, I have bad days. Days where the anxiety hits me like a train. But there’s been a level of wholeness I didn’t know was possible.

I would say America's justice system isn't that broken and is actually one of the better ones. We do lean towards not convicting innocent people versus trying to convict more guilty people. I think that is a good thing, though.

As a Christian, I wouldn't really pursue justice for myself, but I would certainly pursue it on behalf of others, particularly in the sense of simply letting the truth be known and then letting the worldly government authorities decide what they want to do. In the present era, the worldly government authorities very much lean on the side of aggressively pursuing abuse. However, they still can't be perfect, because they aren't God. Only God can bring about perfect justice, but we should remember that God also values mercy as much as he does justice.

Moving away from the rapists, my family, and leaving the culture has given me the space to heal that I desperately needed. I never wanted to leave, but I had to for my own mental health and my safety. I don’t know what the future holds, but Jesus has been kind to me. He keeps showing up in ways I cannot deny.

Overall, one of my greater concerns is that many people who claim to abuse advocates, start advocacy groups, and so on, are often people with bad. intentions. We got a front row seat to this when Steve Stutzman started the ASAA, claiming to want to help victims, when he was simultaneously protecting abusers and funnelling more potential victims to a notorious abuser.

[barnhart]

Sometimes people feel the system is do broken they loose hope of justice and just act pragmatically to reduce their sentences as much as possible within their power.

I’ve also seen cases in which perps will take a plea deal in order to try to control the narrative. Going through a full blown trial in which a jury determines the outcome would mean even more of their lives being scrutinized. So they take a plea deal, plead guilty, but continue telling everyone they are innocent.

I have never thought of that but I'm sure you are right. The only experience I have is watching someone one truly innocent being accused but it was not related to sexual abuse in any way.

[JohnH]

Sometimes people feel the system is do broken they loose hope of justice and just act pragmatically to reduce their sentences as much as possible within their power.

I’ve also seen cases in which perps will take a plea deal in order to try to control the narrative. Going through a full blown trial in which a jury determines the outcome would mean even more of their lives being scrutinized. So they take a plea deal, plead guilty, but continue telling everyone they are innocent.

I have never thought of that but I'm sure you are right. The only experience I have is watching someone one truly innocent being accused but it was not related to sexual abuse in any way.

Yet what Neto talked about was people who took plea deals who later were exonerated due to DNA evidence showing they were not the perpetrator. I'm not sure why this concept is hard to understand.

[anndet92]

I’ve also seen cases in which perps will take a plea deal in order to try to control the narrative. Going through a full blown trial in which a jury determines the outcome would mean even more of their lives being scrutinized. So they take a plea deal, plead guilty, but continue telling everyone they are innocent.

I have never thought of that but I'm sure you are right. The only experience I have is watching someone one truly innocent being accused but it was not related to sexual abuse in any way.

Yet what Neto talked about was people who took plea deals who later were exonerated due to DNA evidence showing they were not the perpetrator. I'm not sure why this concept is hard to understand.

I don’t doubt that this also happens too. Especially in cases where the accused are people of color.

I worked closely (one on one) with people of color, mostly male. I was very surprised by the respectfulness with which I was treated, as I was always under the impression that black males are “dangerous”. I found the ones I worked with to be the opposite.