JohnH wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 3:15 pm
Okay. Do you acknowledge the majority of plain churches don’t have rooms and the only doors are the main ones?
I have yet to see any church buildings, let alone a majority of plain churches, that have only exterior doors and no others.
The last OO service I attended only had exterior doors. Basically one big room. The outhouses by the horse stalls did have a door that had no glass window, but presumably nobody expects that. They were a “one stall” situation (the outhouses, not the horses).
Most OOA meet in a barn or basement. Whilst there might be soon rooms with doors in a barn or basement, they aren’t generally used for church purposes, and perhaps might even be locked, as another poster said he thought is a good idea.
You seem to be conflating churches (which are not physical entities and can have only metaphorical doors) with church buildings. Since the OOA generally do not have church buildings, they don't count when considering the presence or absence of doors in church buildings.
Nearly all csa in OO circles occurs in the home and the most common mode is ssa. So perhaps the rest of us could learn from them.
I would hope we don't learn those things from them.
It would behoove us to understand this is by far the most common kind of csa, and also one churches can hardly be expected to police.
But when it comes to the attention of the church, it should not be ignored.
I am not conflating the two; since the topic of windows on doors came up, it seemed pertinent to discuss that the majority of plain churches don’t need this, and thus it is a very poor litmus test of how well a church is “protecting children”.
Exactly. Places like that make me feel safe to bring my children. Communities that resist this, make me feel uneasy on the inside.
I guess you would exclude the majority of plain churches, although the majority of plain churches don’t have classroom doors at all and children stay with parents the entire service. Yet we don’t see anyone claiming the rest of Christendom needs to do that, do we?
I have felt completely safe and comfortable bringing my children to an Old Order service.
Different people have different thoughts. That's the purpose of the discussion board. As for me, I feel safer where children are supervised, doors have glass on them, there are policies against 1:1 adult to child contact, rooms where "hidden things" could go on are locked, there are accepted policies of reporting what needs to be reported, and community commitment to the safety of all children.
Maybe this depends on what your relationship to your church members are like, and the texture of the community you are a part of.
I would find it strange to imagine if all the security features of my church got removed, now its an unsafe enviornment i would hesitate to bring my kids around. What would you do if your church suddenly removed all of its cameras and got solid wood doors?
I know all of my church members pretty well, i trust some more than others but the majority i would imagine are very safe with children even in a locked room. these “policies” only seem appropriate if you hardly know anyone and in my opinion point to a rot in social connection. My “security infrastructure” is simply knowing my church goers for multiple years and their lifelong moral reputation, no 24/7 cameras needed. My discernment is also included.
I spotted an article about Disney Cruise Line crew members who were arrested as a part of a child exploitation ring. It’s shocking how widespread this is. It’s looks to me that these evil predators are drawn to jobs and activities that have a lot of contact with children. I don’t know what can be done other than to have multiple adults present at all times to not only watch over the children but to keep an eye on the other adults just in case one of them is a predator.
2 x
Free Will Baptist <-> Anabaptist
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
Anthony wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:29 pm
My “security infrastructure” is simply knowing my church goers for multiple years and their lifelong moral reputation, no 24/7 cameras needed. My discernment is also included.
The problem with this is so often when the truth comes out people are like "I would have never suspected" or "he didn't seem like the type to do this" etc.
If the people who do these things to children were easy to look at and tell them it wouldn't happen as much as it does.
"Lifelong moral reputation " just means a person hasn't been caught yet, it doesn't mean they are safe or innocent.
ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 3:31 pm
I have yet to see any church buildings, let alone a majority of plain churches, that have only exterior doors and no others.
The last OO service I attended only had exterior doors. Basically one big room. The outhouses by the horse stalls did have a door that had no glass window, but presumably nobody expects that. They were a “one stall” situation (the outhouses, not the horses).
Most OOA meet in a barn or basement. Whilst there might be soon rooms with doors in a barn or basement, they aren’t generally used for church purposes, and perhaps might even be locked, as another poster said he thought is a good idea.
You seem to be conflating churches (which are not physical entities and can have only metaphorical doors) with church buildings. Since the OOA generally do not have church buildings, they don't count when considering the presence or absence of doors in church buildings.
OO Brethren, OO Hutterites, OO Swiss/German Mennonites, OO Dutch/Russian Mennonites, all have meeting houses (church buildings).
Last edited by Ernie on Fri May 08, 2026 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Anthony wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2026 11:13 pm
The glass windowed doors, policing of childrens movements, and locked doors give the feeling of a low-trust society unable to keep basic social norms and coherence without force.
I think of these things as helping to establish a high-accountability, high-transparency environment. It inspires greater trust.
Exactly. Places like that make me feel safe to bring my children. Communities that resist this, make me feel uneasy on the inside.
These measures of windows and locked doors are because of the age we are living in. In the day and age we are living in, adults can't be trusted.
There was an age when glass windows were not an option. I'm sure that in that age, there settings where children got abused and settings where they did not. So the more important question to me is, "How do we create settings where people can be trusted live holy lives, whether with glass windows and locked doors or without?"
1 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
I think of these things as helping to establish a high-accountability, high-transparency environment. It inspires greater trust.
Exactly. Places like that make me feel safe to bring my children. Communities that resist this, make me feel uneasy on the inside.
These measures of windows and locked doors are because of the age we are living in. In the day and age we are living in, adults can't be trusted. There was an age when glass windows were not an option. I'm sure that in that age, there settings where children got abused and settings where they did not.
While the age may impact the relative severity the problem, it has less to do with our age than with our fallen natures that transcend times and places. Structures of prudence, accountability, and transparency will vary according to context, but they have always been needed and will always be needed, until Christ returns.
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2026 7:43 amSo the more important question to me is, "How do we create settings where people can be trusted live holy lives, whether with glass windows and locked doors or without?"
Yes, but I'm sure you agree that this is a continual pursuit, not a destination to which we arrive once and for all. Even if a certain group of Christians would reach such a condition, a vibrant church with robust evangelism and growing families will have a constant influx of unbelievers and immature Christians. Prudent structures encourage all toward holiness.
How much of this sort of abuse happens in church buildings or meetings? I would have expected the majority of abuse to happen in more private settings.
mike wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2026 8:39 am
How much of this sort of abuse happens in church buildings or meetings? I would have expected the majority of abuse to happen in more private settings.
Glass doors and such may serve a purpose but I think the larger danger lies in the culture of cover up and down playing consequences as KrisKramer's experience has pointed out.
