Time for a headcovering thread!

[steve-in-kville]

Its been a while since we did a headcovering thread.

My wife and I had a rather lively discussion on this recently. When does the headcovering become less about scripture and/or conviction, and more about identity?

In our tri-county area, we have 101 varieties of Anabaptists across the broad spectrum. After spending 25+ years in the conservative end of it, I've become pretty good at narrowing down church affiliation based on headcovering style and dress patterns. My wife can as well.

I've read through various groups standard on headcovering criteria. Many can get really specific on size and shape, distance from the ears, strings, color and length.

At what point are we over thinking this? Do we make it too complicated? Are new believers and transplants overwhelmed?

I have no agenda, discuss as needed.

[Neto]

I don't think that the shape, material type, or specific design should matter at all. The size, yes. In my understanding of the Scripture, of all Amish & Mennonite groups, the Swartzentruber come the closest to what the intent is for the covering. The best I've ever seen was in a small Plymouth Brethren congregation in the greater Dallas-Fort Worth area (where we attended while my wife was taking her last required semester of linguistics/translation training). Most of the women there carried a piece of cloth in their purse that was large enough to cover their entire head, which they put on when they arrived for service. Some would drape the front down over their face during the prayer times. (Some others just wore large hats.) I think that 'requiring' that the covering be worn during all waking hours discourages or even prevents the use of a large covering like this.

[To clarify, I do not think that the hair is the covering, nor is it what is supposed to be covered. In my understanding, long hair was given to the woman at creation as a covering, but that function was destroyed when sin entered humanity. (That is, Eve was CREATED with long hair - it didn't have to grow out after she was created.) So the sin condition is why a separate covering is now necessary. (Just as clothing was not necessary before sin. I think that it may be possible to view the trend toward nakedness in our modern cultures as a vain reach for the purity that was lost when sin entered.) It is the head which is to be covered. To back-track a bit, while I don't understand the Scripture to require covering the hair, or wearing a covering at all times, it would be better to do so, with a long scarf, ready to be folded down over in front during prayer, especially in the gatherings, as that is the context of the Scripture we have concerning this.]

[JimFoxvog]

The Bible teaches women should cover their heads while praying or prophesying. The context suggests this is public prayer. Any further demands for head coverings are cultural, which isn't necessarily bad, but should not be considered a matter of sin or faithfulness. To me it's an open argument whether the covering during prayer or prophecy was for a specific cultural situation or for all time, so, being unsure, I would suggest or recommend the practice but not condemn those who decide otherwise.

If people want to identify the group they are with, this seems the same as political pins or bumper stickers. OK, but don't use it to divide people.

[Josh]

Groups that claim there should be no set style seem to, without fail, eventually end up abandoning the covering altogether, which gives me very little confidence in their arguments there should be no prescribed style.

My own group doesn’t technically have a prescribed style but everyone wears the same style of kapp. One woman I have met so far (a seeker, like me) wears a veil instead of a kapp. In other countries, they wear colours other than black, but still have a de facto style.

For worship on Sunday and other worship services or other formal meetings where we hope the Holy Spirit will be present to inspire and guide (so a member’s meeting, but not necessarily a dry business meeting about who to nominate to deal with replacing the septic system), the women wear more formal head coverings similar to a babushka.

[Valerie]

This is a part of Scripture that I was taught wrongly on so long, I have the Anabaptists to thank for causing me to go on a learning journey about it. Which my husband did too. When we did we both concluded I should cover but not going to Anabaptist Church, a scarf was the way you go to "cover the head"

When you see drawings of women in early church in the catacombs they were not identical veiling.

I see the point made in not emphasizing sects by having specifics, there is a Church in Sugarcreek, started by a pastor who had grown up Amish. I think but not sure, his Church did not require covering. However for a long time now, the women, though not required, started wearing coverings that are long, more like veiling of early Christians. When we have visited I see different kids that seem like we're from a woman's former Mennonite Church. This Church seems to have actually changed through the years to embrace it, not forsake it, do not seem legalistic, and I see it as a beautiful witness. I am not sure but I don't think they wear them apart from Church- so it seems their understanding is for public worship and prayer-

From our studies it seems women in general covered for modesty reasons too- outside of church

[danfreed]

Thanks for the thread, Steve, and for the comments so far from Valerie, Jim, Josh and Neto.

For those reading, who are not familiar with the subject, here is the Bible passage (1 Corinthians 11:1-16) that is being discussed....

1 And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.
2 I am so glad that you always keep me in your thoughts, and that you are following the teachings I passed on to you. 3 But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 A man dishonors his head if he covers his head while praying or prophesying. 5 But a woman dishonors her head if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. 6 Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering.

7 A man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping, for man is made in God’s image and reflects God’s glory. And woman reflects man’s glory. 8 For the first man didn’t come from woman, but the first woman came from man. 9 And man was not made for woman, but woman was made for man. 10 For this reason, and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority.
11 But among the Lord’s people, women are not independent of men, and men are not independent of women. 12 For although the first woman came from man, every other man was born from a woman, and everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves. Is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering her head? 14 Isn’t it obvious that it’s disgraceful for a man to have long hair? 15 And isn’t long hair a woman’s pride and joy? For it has been given to her as a covering. 16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God’s other churches.

[Sudsy]

To be fair, here are some arguments that the headcovering was not to be worn by all women for all time which would make it not an act of disobedience for women today if they didn't wear one. In case someone has not read the arguments against headcovering wearing today, here are some of their reasonings to compare to the understandings of those who continue this practise. Myself, I have no convictions on the matter one way or another.

https://www.olivetree.com/blog/what-doe ... coverings/

[NedFlanders]

Its been a while since we did a headcovering thread.

My wife and I had a rather lively discussion on this recently. When does the headcovering become less about scripture and/or conviction, and more about identity?

In our tri-county area, we have 101 varieties of Anabaptists across the broad spectrum. After spending 25+ years in the conservative end of it, I've become pretty good at narrowing down church affiliation based on headcovering style and dress patterns. My wife can as well.

I've read through various groups standard on headcovering criteria. Many can get really specific on size and shape, distance from the ears, strings, color and length.

At what point are we over thinking this? Do we make it too complicated? Are new believers and transplants overwhelmed?

I have no agenda, discuss as needed.

I think your questions relate to a deeper root problem than identity or over thinking.

What are believers doing not taking the Gospel out into the world?

The nearest conservative Mennonite churches to us are hours away! And the most nearest one moved here a few years back to right beside an Holdeman church…? - I still can’t make sense of this other than they moved for other reasons than spreading the Gospel.

Meanwhile there are other places outside North America that have much further without a kingdom church…

New believers don’t know how to process it but the problem has nothing to do with headcovering but rather a wrong focus. And because of this people come up with all kinds of strange ideas like it shouldn’t be a brotherhood/sisterhood common practice, that worship some how is public and not all the time, and etc.

People too often overlook Paul first point - follow Christ. Look for God’s will and to glory Him ALL the time and to take the message of the kingdom everywhere.

[Sudsy]

One thing that can and does show up with certain doctrines and practises, that Christians emphasize over other ones, is taking pride in how one follows what they believe the scriptures require of us.

I think pride can creep in when we go against certain norms in Christianity and perhaps think others are 'falling away' when they don't have the same convictions and understanding of scriptures that we have. A 'holier-than-thou attitude' or a 'super spiritual' or a 'more obedient' view of oneself.

Some areas I have seen this happen are - dress, soul winning, mode of baptism, speaking in tongues, fasting, foot washing and many others including the headcovering.

Just saying that whenever we are emphasizing things that we do that others don't and should, we should check to see if pride is a big factor behind why we emphasize it. We know that scripture says God hates pride so we don't want to give way to it.

[silentreader]

One thing that can and does show up with certain doctrines and practises, that Christians emphasize over other ones, is taking pride in how one follows what they believe the scriptures require of us.

I think pride can creep in when we go against certain norms in Christianity and perhaps think others are 'falling away' when they don't have the same convictions and understanding of scriptures that we have. A 'holier-than-thou attitude' or a 'super spiritual' or a 'more obedient' view of oneself.

Some areas I have seen this happen are - dress, soul winning, mode of baptism, speaking in tongues, fasting, foot washing and many others including the headcovering.

Just saying that whenever we are emphasizing things that we do that others don't and should, we should check to see if pride is a big factor behind why we emphasize it. We know that scripture says God hates pride so we don't want to give way to it.

...or raising (holy) hands when praying...