Church Outreach

[Ken]

Is it only Menno or plain Menno churches that practice this sort of territorial exclusivity?

For example, just out of curiosity I google mapped Lutheran churches and found 21 of them within about a 20 minute radius of my house. So it's obviously not something the Lutherans do.

Well, different plain denominations may set up shop next door to each other (in the most extreme case, where I live, literally on the same street are 3 different flavours of churches, although 2 are no longer plain).

So Mennos are perfectly happy to compete with others, just not with themselves?

Honestly, I suspect that most of the big concentrations of Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. in one area is due almost entirely ethnic immigration and not evangelism. The reason why there are so many Lutherans around here is because this area was mostly settled by northern European immigrants from Germany and Scandanavia. And the reason why there are so many Catholic churches in say Chicago is because of all the Polish, Irish, and Italian waves of settlement. Not because the Catholic church was especially successful in sending evangelical missions or "church plantings" to Chicago.

And a big reason why these churches subsequently decline (as Mike points out) is due in large part to changing demographics as well.

I suspect that one reason why Menno churches are uncomfortable with multiple churches in one area is that the tend to view themselves as a culture apart and something exclusive. Which doesn't lend itself to being the dominant and "default" church in an area. And if you become the majority in an area that means you have to get much more involved in things like local governance which goes against the grain for Mennos. Baptists are kind of the opposite. They are perfectly happy to take all comers and the more dramatic the conversion story the better. Baptists would much rather hear some rip roaring story about a sinner coming to God from a degenerate life of crime than someone who just walks across the street from the local Methodist church over some point of doctrine. And then if you are willing to warm the pews and occasionally tithe, not much else is asked of you. Mennos tend to be much more demanding.

[mike]

I suspect that one reason why Menno churches are uncomfortable with multiple churches in one area is that the tend to view themselves as a culture apart and something exclusive.

In areas that are heavily populated by conservative Anabaptists like Mennonites, Brethren, Amish, etc. I actually think they are often quite comfortable with coexisting side by side. I would guess that generally they would much prefer that people chose the church that fit their preferences even if it is slightly different from theirs, over having large, crammed churches with many people that are discontent or pushing for change.

I see no issue with having multiple officially disconnected conservative Anabaptist churches in the same geographical area. In areas where this is the case, these groups do often manage to work together in all sorts of unofficial ways such as humanitarian aid work. There is literally nothing stopping anybody from starting up a new conservative Mennonite congregation or association of congregations, calling it whatever they want, and affiliating with anyone or no one, and it happens all the time. I see no problem with any of it as long as they are not claiming exclusivity or unfairly maligning other churches.

[mercysfree]

And the problem with a bunch of churches in the same area, I suppose, reduces the need for getting along...Each person can easily and quietly just go to a different church. I don’t think it is good at all to have Grandparents going to a conservative church, while their children go down the road to a more liberal church, while the grandchildren go to an even more liberal church. I find that strange.

This is along the same lines as what I've heard ethnic Mennonites say around here. They don't want to have the problem of church hopping, as frequently happens in large communities with every possible flavor of Anabaptists (and it happens with other denominations, too). If people have to move to go to another similar church, that's a bit of motivation to get along where you are. Although, church splits happen and people end up not moving, even in small communities.

[temporal1]

We did this. Home church was around 250 in attendance.
Church decided to send ten families off to start a new church. If you were willing to go, you volunteered your name in the lot.
We are 3 hour from the home church.

I think once a church gets a certain size, maybe 150 - 200 problems unique to that size are prone to happen. And the problem with a bunch of churches in the same area, I suppose, reduces the need for getting along. And people lose the skill. And they lose the vision.

Each person can easily and quietly just go to a different church.

I don’t think it is good at all to have Grandparents going to a conservative church, while their children go down the road to a more liberal church, while the grandchildren go to an even more liberal church. I find that strange.

Mixed ages and generations are the best. There is nothing to compare. Homes, churches, schools, communities.

[Neto]

The congregation we belong to started in 1980, and has started 5 other congregations, two of which are 45 minutes to an hour away. The others are all fairly close by. (They do have a sort of unwritten preference that the new congregation does not locate within 5 miles of the "mother church", but 5 miles is basically next door.)
Our three children are all a part of one of these newer congregations, located a bit under 10 miles away. My wife & I have been involved in two new "church plant" efforts - one in which we went with the new group for the first 6 months, then went back. The reason? The leadership of the new congregation decided that they would not have adult Sunday School, something which is of great importance to me. This, in my experience, is where close relationships are formed with (in my case) other men. This is where "iron sharpens iron". It wasn't easy leaving - we couldn't just "drift away" as seems to be the "non-confrontational" Mennonite way of handling differences, because I was the accountant as well as the chairman of the Missions Committee. I actually lost a close friend because of this, but I do not know what else I could have done to make it smoother. I told them that I would not stay and "make trouble" with my different opinion, that it was best for us to just go back to the "mother congregation". My relationship with that brother and the pastor there is, I would say, "cordial", but not close - not at all as it was before hand.
More recently we were a part of an effort to form another "outreach". Those interested met a number of times, and a group of the men were chose to form a committee. We were assigned to write up recommendations for consideration by the larger group, and to eventually work as a search team to find a suitable rental space. The committee asked me to serve as chairman. There was a general consensus in the larger group that we all wanted to roll back the congregational guidelines in at least two areas: standards of dress, and music. The committee began going through the "mother congregation's" latest standards, comparing that with the one from several years before. A serious disagreement arose in the committee, largely between myself and two of the other brothers. I made every concession I felt could, agreeing not to engage in, or to be involved with anyone engaged in a certain activity, but the two brothers wanted that thing to be condemned as satanic. I asked for Biblical support, and none was forthcoming, not even from our head pastor. (Don't ask. I will not say what this thing was, except perhaps privately.) My relationship with one of these brothers, who now attends another sister congregation is, as far as I understand, fully restored, at least to the extent that he and his wife have encouraged us to join them at the other congregation. The other brother is still in the mother congregation with us, and he is outwardly friendly, but the relationship is not as it was before. (I am in no way "claiming the high ground" in this situation, I know that I do not "do conflict" well. My tendency is to avoid it at all costs, to the point of being quite evasive, which can in itself be sinful.)

But as I said above the function of the committee was to make recommendations, not create policy. So I do think that these differences could have been resolved. Then another problem arose, when we were unable to find an ordained minister who would come along with the group, either from the mother group, or from other similar congregations in the area. There was one man who had been ordained in another state, and had moved here. I spoke with him, explaining our general objectives, emphasizing that all of this would be subject to the approval of the larger group (the interested families). I had invited him to come meet the group, and share his own vision, but he declined to come at all. But the final "nail in the coffin" came when our head pastor told me that he would not support any new group that decided, before separating, to adopt more conservative guidelines position. (He said that he would not oppose it, but nor would he support it.) That was the end of it, and the group disbanded.
I need to be completely honest here, so bear with me for one bit more. We were also rewriting the entire constitution. This was to be a "congregationalist” church government, one where the pastor would be freed of all “secular type” responsibilities in the congregation, so that his sole focus could rest on spiritual leadership. I do fully realize that this is probably not the approach of any “conservative” congregation in the Amish-Mennonite “culture”. (I would also personally much prefer belonging to a congregation that is a part of a larger organization – call it a denomination if you will, but I see lots of advantages in that type of cooperation on a larger scale)

[Ken]

I see no problem with any of it as long as they are not claiming exclusivity or unfairly maligning other churches.

This comment brought to mind my long departed grandmother. When I used to spend summers in Belleville PA which is dense in various flavors of Menno and Amish churches I can remember her lecturing me about the flaws and heresies of every single other one of them! I expect an outsider would find them all nearly indistinguishable.

[mike]

I see no problem with any of it as long as they are not claiming exclusivity or unfairly maligning other churches.

This comment brought to mind my long departed grandmother. When I used to spend summers in Belleville PA which is dense in various flavors of Menno and Amish churches I can remember her lecturing me about the flaws and heresies of every single other one of them! I expect an outsider would find them all nearly indistinguishable.

If they were rife with flaws and heresies one can only speculate as to the state of all the others…

[Josh]

I see no problem with any of it as long as they are not claiming exclusivity or unfairly maligning other churches.

This comment brought to mind my long departed grandmother. When I used to spend summers in Belleville PA which is dense in various flavors of Menno and Amish churches I can remember her lecturing me about the flaws and heresies of every single other one of them! I expect an outsider would find them all nearly indistinguishable.

You’ll be pleased to know the Holdemans have established themselves in the main ridge, and now two additional ridges.

[Ken]

I see no problem with any of it as long as they are not claiming exclusivity or unfairly maligning other churches.

This comment brought to mind my long departed grandmother. When I used to spend summers in Belleville PA which is dense in various flavors of Menno and Amish churches I can remember her lecturing me about the flaws and heresies of every single other one of them! I expect an outsider would find them all nearly indistinguishable.

If they were rife with flaws and heresies one can only speculate as to the state of all the others…

I expect she had things to say about the one we attended too She was never at a loss for opinions.

[ken_sylvania]

This comment brought to mind my long departed grandmother. When I used to spend summers in Belleville PA which is dense in various flavors of Menno and Amish churches I can remember her lecturing me about the flaws and heresies of every single other one of them! I expect an outsider would find them all nearly indistinguishable.

If they were rife with flaws and heresies one can only speculate as to the state of all the others…

I expect she had things to say about the one we attended too She was never at a loss for opinions.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?