Easterns/Hope Fellowship/Pilgrim Psychology

[aussieandy]

When I read this post, I thought hmm...a more progressive mennonite bashing on ultra conservative and intermediate mennonites post. But then I also thought, Nationwide generally obeys the orders given to it by the government with regards covid-19 restrictions, even if we don't like them much. We grudgingly follow them, but it is hard on us.

So I do think it's just cultural and not as a result of how conservative they are.

[steve-in-kville]

Regarding the holy kiss, given the pandemic, methinks a time of pausing the practice would be God honoring.

You're not the minority in that train of thought.

[steve-in-kville]

Steve has it right I think.

And that, my friends, is why I make the big money

[chrisn]

From what I gathered through the grapevine, I believe our district bishops would have been more quick to follow the government shutdown guidelines, but backed down due to pressure from the members and other bishops. I know for a fact our church resumed services after many other EPMC congregations in PA did.

There is definitely a separation between church authority and government authority, but there are a lot of politics buried just under the surface. Since for some reason wearing a mask is tied to politics, it would be really interesting to know how it would have gone had President Trump and Republicans in general related to COVID19 the same way Democrats actually did.

Back in April, my in-laws (not Mennonite) were asking a lot of questions as to why our church/general conservative Mennonite culture is so against the mask/shutdown, etc. I said that the main problem is that Mennonites are Republicans, and I am even more certain of this than ever before. My coworkers include Pilgrim, Hope, Keystone, Charity, BMA; and I hear a lot of anti-Democrat, anti-mask, pro-Trump from a lot of them -- even the ones that are ordained.

There's also the general culture (in EPMC at least) of something is OK as long as you can get buy with it - it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. My sister works part-time in a bakery at a farm market, and she lost her sense of taste while at work. Her boss told her she could keep working or she could stay home for the rest of the week, but don't make a big deal about it either way. He said that several other girls had similar symptoms, and they kept working. Also, they wear their masks under their chin because "at least we're wearing masks. They didn't say how you had to wear them".

I listened to a podcast where one of the hosts described kind of how I feel (paraphrased from memory)-

Suppose you are going camping, and when you get to the park you discover there is a burn ban. It's not fun to go camping without a fire, so you look around to see what other people are doing.

One party is playing with flamethrowers. One party has a bonfire. Another campsite has fireworks. And so on.

So are you causing that much more danger by having a small campfire?

I wear a mask when going into stores, but I think it's pointless to be the only one wearing a mask to church.

[Ken]

From what I gathered through the grapevine, I believe our district bishops would have been more quick to follow the government shutdown guidelines, but backed down due to pressure from the members and other bishops. I know for a fact our church resumed services after many other EPMC congregations in PA did.

There is definitely a separation between church authority and government authority, but there are a lot of politics buried just under the surface. Since for some reason wearing a mask is tied to politics, it would be really interesting to know how it would have gone had President Trump and Republicans in general related to COVID19 the same way Democrats actually did.

Back in April, my in-laws (not Mennonite) were asking a lot of questions as to why our church/general conservative Mennonite culture is so against the mask/shutdown, etc. I said that the main problem is that Mennonites are Republicans, and I am even more certain of this than ever before. My coworkers include Pilgrim, Hope, Keystone, Charity, BMA; and I hear a lot of anti-Democrat, anti-mask, pro-Trump from a lot of them -- even the ones that are ordained.

There's also the general culture (in EPMC at least) of something is OK as long as you can get buy with it - it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. My sister works part-time in a bakery at a farm market, and she lost her sense of taste while at work. Her boss told her she could keep working or she could stay home for the rest of the week, but don't make a big deal about it either way. He said that several other girls had similar symptoms, and they kept working. Also, they wear their masks under their chin because "at least we're wearing masks. They didn't say how you had to wear them".

I listened to a podcast where one of the hosts described kind of how I feel (paraphrased from memory)-

Suppose you are going camping, and when you get to the park you discover there is a burn ban. It's not fun to go camping without a fire, so you look around to see what other people are doing.

One party is playing with flamethrowers. One party has a bonfire. Another campsite has fireworks. And so on.

So are you causing that much more danger by having a small campfire?

I wear a mask when going into stores, but I think it's pointless to be the only one wearing a mask to church.

More than anything this strikes me as a failure of leadership.

[joshuabgood]

From what I gathered through the grapevine, I believe our district bishops would have been more quick to follow the government shutdown guidelines, but backed down due to pressure from the members and other bishops. I know for a fact our church resumed services after many other EPMC congregations in PA did.

There is definitely a separation between church authority and government authority, but there are a lot of politics buried just under the surface. Since for some reason wearing a mask is tied to politics, it would be really interesting to know how it would have gone had President Trump and Republicans in general related to COVID19 the same way Democrats actually did.

Back in April, my in-laws (not Mennonite) were asking a lot of questions as to why our church/general conservative Mennonite culture is so against the mask/shutdown, etc. I said that the main problem is that Mennonites are Republicans, and I am even more certain of this than ever before. My coworkers include Pilgrim, Hope, Keystone, Charity, BMA; and I hear a lot of anti-Democrat, anti-mask, pro-Trump from a lot of them -- even the ones that are ordained.

There's also the general culture (in EPMC at least) of something is OK as long as you can get buy with it - it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. My sister works part-time in a bakery at a farm market, and she lost her sense of taste while at work. Her boss told her she could keep working or she could stay home for the rest of the week, but don't make a big deal about it either way. He said that several other girls had similar symptoms, and they kept working. Also, they wear their masks under their chin because "at least we're wearing masks. They didn't say how you had to wear them".

I listened to a podcast where one of the hosts described kind of how I feel (paraphrased from memory)-

Suppose you are going camping, and when you get to the park you discover there is a burn ban. It's not fun to go camping without a fire, so you look around to see what other people are doing.

One party is playing with flamethrowers. One party has a bonfire. Another campsite has fireworks. And so on.

So are you causing that much more danger by having a small campfire?

I wear a mask when going into stores, but I think it's pointless to be the only one wearing a mask to church.

Thanks for sharing. That provides some helpful insight.

[MaxPC]

Regarding the holy kiss, given the pandemic, methinks a time of pausing the practice would be God honoring.

Where does the Bible say this? When the NT was written there was a lot more death and dying of infectious disease than we have today.

Maybe they practiced”herd immunity”.

[Chris]

My aunt, who belonged to an Eastern church, died the other day. My wife and I attended the viewing last Thursday. I don't know what I was expecting, but there were 300 or so people packed (literally) into a reception center and nary a mask in sight and zero social distancing. Beings I am one who goes more for the spirit of the law than the letter of the law I don't particularly judge folks for practicing the PA governor's orders in a way that "works for them," but what was striking is that these groups of people major on conformity and "authority" down to the very nitty gritty everyday details. They all had the "regulation coat," the same style shoes for women/men, a clearly defined haircut and hair style etc.

What I am interested in is, what is the psychology that permits embracing conformity and submission to authority with regard to very small personal details (when it comes to local community norms - that is church rules in plain language), but is so comfortable flatly ignoring lawful orders? It really is amazing to me. I think the bottom line is they are only for submission when it comes to submitting to things "they want" but real submission is beyond even a general "spirit of the law" approach. To me it feels like an underlying arrogance that is super unhealthy. I am certain there are other inquiring minds in their groups that will see this obvious cognitive and social dissonance.

We submit to what we want to submit to...and not only that but we demand complete submission about very small details. But we will not submit to small details regulated by others. Do as I say not as I do...it actually makes me upset at one level. I think I could get on board if there were consistency either way. I myself don't wear a mask according to all the strictures. But to see it juxtaposed against an insistence of all the other rules seems confusing.

I'm one that believes in two things.
1. Covid-19 is the most overblown ridiculous thing meant to conform us, reduce us, separate us, and exploit us. Many of us have had it now, and it's a cold to a small flu, nothing more.

2. The governors if they issue "orders" may not harm any other biblical command. One of which is not forsaking the assembly of the saints. It ruins communications, ruins singing, ruins being most personable with people. It also has destroyed evangelism. The governors can forget it. I will not in any way, shape, or form allow a governor to make me go against scripture. Sitting in a pew, distanced, thinking all my brothers and sisters are a "threat" and scared, and not evangelizing works against my Christian faith completely.

[Josh]

Could we add “BMA/CMC/Mennonite Brethren/MC USA Psychology” to this thread title?

[Josh]

When I read this post, I thought hmm...a more progressive mennonite bashing on ultra conservative and intermediate mennonites post. But then I also thought, Nationwide generally obeys the orders given to it by the government with regards covid-19 restrictions, even if we don't like them much. We grudgingly follow them, but it is hard on us.

So I do think it's just cultural and not as a result of how conservative they are.

joshuabgood is of Eastern, and later Pilgrim, origin, and spends most of his time here in MennoNet criticising anyone who is more conservative than his current alignment, which is the far liberal wing of BMA.