Can we make MN less hostile?

[Josh]

I haven't regularly used that strong of language in debating those here on MennoNet who support obvious sins like adultery, homosexuality, fornication, and abortion. Perhaps I should start.

I hope not.

The request from some is to use more "biblical language". Yet adopting such language means making some very harsh statements against those who promote various sins.

[Sudsy]

I wonder at times about just where we draw the lines in being a Christ follower in the sense of us doing exactly as Jesus did. If I am going to use the practise of Jesus in all that I do, then I better leave my job and go into full time ministry. I would be healing the sick, casting out devils, walking on water, multiplying bread fishes and wine many times over, etc, etc. And yes, I would be 'in the face' of the Pharisees regarding their hypocrisy and attitudes toward sinners. And in the end, after much rebuke and torture I could still say 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

We sing lots of songs about being like Jesus. 'All that I am to be like Him'. That should be our goal but without the Holy Spirit's guidance our human tendency (the flesh) will try to pick those areas of Jesus practise that our flesh can do without the Spirit's direction. Not saying the Spirit won't direct us to rebuke something but He will also work in us in His gentle way so the fruit characteristic of gentleness is in operation.

I believe whenever we are eager to point out sin in others, considering the woman caught in adultery is a story to remember. None of us are without sin somewhere in our lives. Jesus was the only one without sin and although He could have condemned her to death, He chose not to. He didn't ignore her sin but He let her off from sin's penalty to go and sin no more. Is this an example that I can do with those guilty of sins ? With the enabling power of the Spirit, yes, I can.

I think this is a good conversation to have as some of us here may have a more direct approach to pointing out certain sins over others as Boot pointed us to a list in scripture to consider. Do we treat these the same or just point more to the sins of others ? Much to consider as I certainly am not without sin and don't listen to the Spirit as I should. Perhaps a thread on 'gentleness' might be a good one.

[nett]

I wonder at times about just where we draw the lines in being a Christ follower in the sense of us doing exactly as Jesus did. If I am going to use the practise of Jesus in all that I do, then I better leave my job and go into full time ministry. I would be healing the sick, casting out devils, walking on water, multiplying bread fishes and wine many times over, etc, etc. And yes, I would be 'in the face' of the Pharisees regarding their hypocrisy and attitudes toward sinners. And in the end, after much rebuke and torture I could still say 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

We sing lots of songs about being like Jesus. 'All that I am to be like Him'. That should be our goal but without the Holy Spirit's guidance our human tendency (the flesh) will try to pick those areas of Jesus practise that our flesh can do without the Spirit's direction. Not saying the Spirit won't direct us to rebuke something but He will also work in us in His gentle way so the fruit characteristic of gentleness is in operation.

I believe whenever we are eager to point out sin in others, considering the woman caught in adultery is a story to remember. None of us are without sin somewhere in our lives. Jesus was the only one without sin and although He could have condemned her to death, He chose not to. He didn't ignore her sin but He let her off from sin's penalty to go and sin no more. Is this an example that I can do with those guilty of sins ? With the enabling power of the Spirit, yes, I can.

I think this is a good conversation to have as some of us here may have a more direct approach to pointing out certain sins over others as Boot pointed us to a list in scripture to consider. Do we treat these the same or just point more to the sins of others ? Much to consider as I certainly am not without sin and don't listen to the Spirit as I should. Perhaps a thread on 'gentleness' might be a good one.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul did not perform miracles on the scale of Christ, or even the other apostles, but he did not mince words when it came to evildoers and sin.

[Sudsy]

I wonder at times about just where we draw the lines in being a Christ follower in the sense of us doing exactly as Jesus did. If I am going to use the practise of Jesus in all that I do, then I better leave my job and go into full time ministry. I would be healing the sick, casting out devils, walking on water, multiplying bread fishes and wine many times over, etc, etc. And yes, I would be 'in the face' of the Pharisees regarding their hypocrisy and attitudes toward sinners. And in the end, after much rebuke and torture I could still say 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

We sing lots of songs about being like Jesus. 'All that I am to be like Him'. That should be our goal but without the Holy Spirit's guidance our human tendency (the flesh) will try to pick those areas of Jesus practise that our flesh can do without the Spirit's direction. Not saying the Spirit won't direct us to rebuke something but He will also work in us in His gentle way so the fruit characteristic of gentleness is in operation.

I believe whenever we are eager to point out sin in others, considering the woman caught in adultery is a story to remember. None of us are without sin somewhere in our lives. Jesus was the only one without sin and although He could have condemned her to death, He chose not to. He didn't ignore her sin but He let her off from sin's penalty to go and sin no more. Is this an example that I can do with those guilty of sins ? With the enabling power of the Spirit, yes, I can.

I think this is a good conversation to have as some of us here may have a more direct approach to pointing out certain sins over others as Boot pointed us to a list in scripture to consider. Do we treat these the same or just point more to the sins of others ? Much to consider as I certainly am not without sin and don't listen to the Spirit as I should. Perhaps a thread on 'gentleness' might be a good one.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul did not perform miracles on the scale of Christ, or even the other apostles, but he did not mince words when it came to evildoers and sin.

Most commentaries consider this verse should have been the last verse in 1 Cor. 10. Paul was talking about how he went about seeking the salvation of others. Barnes Notes -

Be ye followers of me - Imitate my example in the matter now under discussion. As I deny myself; as I seek to give no offence to anyone; as I endeavor not to alarm the prejudices of others, but in all things to seek their salvation, so do you. This verse belongs to the previous chapter, and should not have been separated from it. It is the close of the discussion there.

So, my understanding here is that Paul wasn't saying to follow him in everything Paul did and said. And here we see Paul not wanting to offend others in how they believed and lived but rather to share Jesus with them. Paul had a focus on the salvation of others.

[Josh]

One thing the NT does not support is that we should be mute about speaking against sin.

[Bootstrap]

One thing the NT does not support is that we should be mute about speaking against sin.

Amen.

But it also has a LOT to say about HOW we should speak against sin with various people in various settings. And we see examples of Paul and Jesus and John doing just that. Examples we should follow.

And sometimes it's surprising to see which sins they speak most harshly against.

[Sudsy]

One thing the NT does not support is that we should be mute about speaking against sin.

Amen.

But it also has a LOT to say about HOW we should speak against sin with various people in various settings. And we see examples of Paul and Jesus and John doing just that. Examples we should follow.

And sometimes it's surprising to see which sins they speak most harshly against.

And if those are the sins we may be committing, we avoid these over the ones we are not guilty of. Easy for some Phariseeism to sneak into our judgments isn't there ?

[Soloist]

And if those are the sins we may be committing, we avoid these over the ones we are not guilty of. Easy for some Phariseeism to sneak into our judgments isn't there ?

The problem is that addressing any sin will result in accusations of pharasitical behavior. This often is a deflection attempt of a person's sin but not always.

[MaxPC]

And if those are the sins we may be committing, we avoid these over the ones we are not guilty of. Easy for some Phariseeism to sneak into our judgments isn't there ?

The problem is that addressing any sin will result in accusations of pharasitical behavior. This often is a deflection attempt of a person's sin but not always.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Jesus gave good instruction in Matthew 18 on how to deal with that when addressing a brother in Christ:

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

My apologies, apparently I did not finish my post before the computer hiccupped.
Epilog: Of course there are those who are not our 'brothers'; it returns to the concept of audience. If the audience is made up of strangers or non-brethren in Christ as in the case of evangelisation, the hostile and resistant people are dealt with according to Matthew 10:14.

If it is a brother in Christ who is walking with you on the same discipleship path then Jesus provides the guidance in Matthew 18:15-17.

[Bootstrap]

And if those are the sins we may be committing, we avoid these over the ones we are not guilty of. Easy for some Phariseeism to sneak into our judgments isn't there ?

The problem is that addressing any sin will result in accusations of pharasitical behavior. This often is a deflection attempt of a person's sin but not always.

That's one real problem. And it can result in celebrating sin and denying core biblical teaching.

But here's another problem: in some churches, there is very little teaching about what Jesus was talking about when he confronted the Pharisees, and people can be applauded for doing pretty much exactly what the Pharisees did. Sins of speech are among the most important sins mentioned in the New Testament, but they are barely addressed in many churches. People who do the same things Jesus did might be criticized in the same way that the Pharisees criticized Jesus. In some churches, people can even become specialists in "other people's sins", competing to see who can most loudly condemn them, gaining social status by doing so.

And that also is celebrating sin and denying core biblical teaching.

The Pharisees were clearly doing something wrong. Whatever that was, we want to make sure we aren't doing the same.