Can we make MN less hostile?

[Bootstrap]

If we were more open to contacting someone via PM, maybe ask them to clarify their statement, most likely its smoothed out and both parties walk away on good terms.

That only works if the other person responds to PMs.

[steve-in-kville]

That only works if the other person responds to PMs.

Good point. Some people just want to rumble, no matter what.

[Robert]

Good point. Some people just want to rumble, no matter what.

I resemble that remark.

[temporal1]

Is this satire?

Yes, my lame attempt at dry humor, yet I'm trying to make a point: If you accuse someone publically of something, they will most likely respond publically to that accusation. And not only defend themselves, but try to "one up" the accuser with counter-accusations, thus starting an all out flame war on the 'net. Its human nature.

If we were more open to contacting someone via PM, maybe ask them to clarify their statement, most likely its smoothed out and both parties walk away on good terms.

good morning, steve -
i’d like to add a just a bit to your pretty good generalizations ..
i mostly agree with your posts; overall, i enjoy independent thinkers.
i’m not always sure i understand in full, sometimes, i’ll ask for help in the moment, sometimes, i remain puzzled, and wait for better understanding later, as i read more.

MD had an interesting member, jcm, who often wrote in a “cryptic” style (others’ description.)
i enjoyed him, i take these sorts of posts as challenges to think more deeply about any given topic, serious, or comedic. (some find these types of posts irritating.) i understand.
but, i prefer to take them as positive challenges to use+stretch the ol’ grey matter.

i don’t have to understand or agree with everything i read to get something beneficial out of it.
imho, it’s all part of the bigger picture, which God has well in hand.

regarding PM’s.
i know some members LOVE PM’s, and would not want to do without them. i’m ok with this.
however, from my beginning on this forum, i was (wisely) warned not to share too much, to be cautious, that there are occasional “rascals” that find their way to this public forum, etc.

i witnessed a few instances of forum rascals. now blocked. but, rascals happen.

PM’s can be useful. but, as with everything, “all that glitters,” you know.

from the start, i preferred to keep things public. “in the light of day.”
my sense was, this avoids temptations of gossip, etc. i stand by this, but, not rigidly.
i can’t recall my last PM. and, i’m ok with that.

Robert and moderators.
In this thread, in casual discussion style, Robert has shared (and reviewed) various important forum guidelines/rules.
This is great, esp for new members who were not here from MN’s start, when Robert described many of these things. i appreciate a refresher course, too.

Steve, one difference (of many) between us is, you are experienced with forums.
MD was my first forum. What i’ve learned here is my internet foundation. i’m good with that.

o. and, about that pesky “human nature.”
o. yes. we wrestle with our human nature!

however, a good measure of what i enjoy finding on this very forum is, how to overcome our fallen human nature. how to respond in grace and dignity. this is invaluable leadership in how to walk-the-talk. these are “forum diamonds.” (MD had a Diamonds thread!)

i’m offering this as an informal chat.

my central point would be:
when we truly respect our real-life forum admin+moderators, their guidelines, wisdom, experience, this would take care of the vast majority of (more serious) problems.
to me, this means listening+acting, even when they are not YELLING IN ALL CAPS! (i see some forum mods do this.) lol .. sometimes, listening is all we can do. sometimes, it is not enough.

don’t dismiss. read carefully. the quiet, civilized “fine points” are crucial.

when members state, “well, this is my way, i’m right, thus, i’m going to continue.”
this is basically saying, “i’m admin-mod, listen to godly me.”

tho not intended, this actually happens.
unfortunately, when it persists, Robert sometimes becomes tempted to offer his admin-owner hat to others. .. after all, he does have other important responsibilities to attend to. as do mods.

so. “once again,” my 2 cents.

[Josh]

He needs to report when that happens, as others should report when he does that to them. Unfair attacks are reportable issues.

Robert, I did do that in the past, and your response to me was that I needed to grow a thicker skin and that I'm an abrasive, acerbic person too, so I should tolerate MaxPC's attacks on me, including the ones where he attacked my salvation. I thought MN/MD had a rule against attacking someone else's salvation, but apparently that rule did not extend to protecting me from such attacks.

Essentially, there is a lack of a relationship of trust between me and you (and between me and the other administrators of MN, which would be you and justme); whenever I bring anything up, it usually turns into a personal dig against me, such as:

Whether they win or not depends on the way the points are counted.

It means they eventually dominate the conversation and other, less loud posters are driven away and eventually give up on this forum.

that's rich.
the most prolific poster on the forum at this time is complaining that the less loud posters are being driven away by the ones who dominate the conversation.

I don't really know for sure how Robert and justme feel about me, but most my interactions with them are negative. And that's just the way it is.

I can't make everyone in the world like me and I certainly can't try to make the forum administrators here like me. But telling me I just need to "press the report button" isn't a valid response when I've indeed tried to handle things through the proper channels, and have just been told to go away and grow a thicker skin.

We do want a constructive forum. When two people go at, it is often fair game. Both should be able to stand as adults. If it gets petty and name calling starts, then we do need to cool things down, and we will. The challenge is if two people go at it, and others start picking sides, then wars are started and tribes are created.

And perhaps part of the problem is that some people have a vested interest in creating tribes and factions and attempting to sow disharmony into a group, and are enabled to do so in MennoNet where they can stay anonymous, have never met with anyone here in real life, and yet keep on establishing themselves as an authority on a wide variety of topics. I think that kind of behaviour is harmful and pushes legitimate posters away.

[Robert]

Robert, I did do that in the past, and your response to me was that I needed to grow a thicker skin and that I'm an abrasive, acerbic person too, so I should tolerate MaxPC's attacks on me, including the ones where he attacked my salvation.

And that is most likely taking the response of one instance and transferring it to all the time and everything. That is the action of an absolutist. If you choose to do that, I can not stop you. We all need to get thicker skins, but not be doormats. There is a balance. Some days I walk it well. Other days, not so much.

I have seen nothing flagged that attacks your salvation. If someone does, then flag that post. I will evaluate it. I DO NOT read everything. I have to try to go back and catch up with what was said and how it was responded to. I guarantee you I will not always get it right. I also get bored with babysitting adults. It is bad enough I have to babysit teenagers. So sometimes my patience and attention is short. I am always up for discussion of why and what is going on. I assure each I will agree and disagree with every member on MN some time or another. I personally hate being int he position of making these decisions. Justme, Dan Z and Appleman do help, often in the background where we do discuss things.

I am glad some do not trust me. Few, if any have met me personally and gotten to know me. Yet, the end result is it is up to me to make some of the choices. One choice I make is pushing adults to act like adults and not children. I also expect Anabaptists to act in loving compassionate ways. We all stumble, but if a person stumbles more then stays on the path, then maybe it is not my judgement but their actions that is adding to the conflicts. It is easy to blame others for our struggles, but we often affect them much more than the others we are blaming. Often he conflicts in here sound just like the ones I deal with at home with my 10, 13 and 15 year old. Those times, I get annoyed and I assure you I am not as tolerant and caring as some might hope me to be.

Also remember they also imprisoned Galileo. Maybe it is just your turn to be the martyr.

[Reflecting]

<swallow my tongue >
You don’t always agree with me? I’m crushed. Heartbroken. One day I might get over it, but ...


For now I’ll just say it’s been entirely too long since I’ve mentioned how much I appreciate all the thankless work you do here! And you BETTER had not disagree with me on this one!

[Neto]

I'm going to pop in here (where I kinda' know to stay out of) and say something that relates to politics, which I 'never' do. In the Sunday paper here yesterday, there was an article about the Russians meddling in the last election. This is a rather leftist paper, but this was the first article I've read on this subject that makes any sense to me. They didn't exactly say it, but the inference I drew from it is that the Russians didn't care who won. They were not trying to support either party, or either candidate. Recent reports show that they were 'helping' both sides. Here's the conclusion - they were just trying to encourage a divide in American society, and in American politics. Looks to me like they were pretty successful.

I'm not saying that the "Russians" have infiltrated MN, but there does seem to be a good deal of discord here. Make MN less hostile? Just BE less hostile. It's what I try to remember myself, not only on this forum, but on all of the places where I participate in any kind of interaction, including on the road, and in face to face conversations.

[RZehr]

Hmm. Neto don’t you have a Russian connection?

[Bootstrap]

We all need to get thicker skins, but not be doormats. There is a balance. Some days I walk it well. Other days, not so much.

I have seen nothing flagged that attacks your salvation. If someone does, then flag that post. I will evaluate it.

I would hope it's not just posts that attack someone's salvation, but also posts that attack someone's character or intelligence or mental stability. I think a few people have done that to Josh, and it's not OK. It's usually done in a blatantly passive-aggressive way. Not often, and only a few people, but it doesn't take much to turn the atmosphere toxic. If that kind of thing is going on, I hope people would not encourage him to just relax, I think this is precisely what we should want to root out.

I agree that you need a somewhat thick skin on an internet forum, but I also think that kind of post should be out of bounds. I think we should try to make MN an emotionally safe place. A place where people can have a variety of opinions and debate them vigorously or discuss them in depth without attacking each other.