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Barnhart re

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:44 am Matt 23:8-10

Specifically regarding this verse, I pulled out an old Bible study I conducted years ago for RCIA catechumens. There are quite a few more Bible verses associated with that study so I picked out key categories for you.
Call no man father (Mt 23:9)
In the light of the verses below the RCC discerned different usages of “father” in the Greek and Aramaic. If I recall correctly this is bound to a particular context within Jesus’ discourse and similarly hold a Greek meaning that differs from “father” in other contexts. Neto, may be able to help us out with this one; I have loaned my Greek books to a seminarian and do not have them presently to consult.

Matthew 5:29-30 To drive home a teaching point, Jesus’ used hyperbole; e.g. “pluck out the eye; cut off the hand”. Another example in Luke 14:26 - “if anyone comes to me without hating his father….”

Jesus’ use of “father” within a positive context:
Matthew 19:19 Jesus confirms the commandment to “honor thy father and mother”.

Luke 16:24, Matthew 3:9 Jesus calls Abraham “father”.

The Apostle’s usage:
Acts 7:2 Stephen calls Jewish leaders “fathers”.

Acts 21:40, 22:1 Paul calls Jerusalem Jews “fathers”.

Romans 4:16-17 Abraham called “the father of us all”.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 I" do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

1 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4 “my true child in the faith”.

1 Thessalonians 2:11 “we treated you as a father treats his children”

Philemon 10 “I appeal to you for my child, One′simus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.”

1 John 2:13,14 Shows the different uses of the word “father” and its dependency upon linguistic contexts.
“13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father.”

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:41 am

1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, ... However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."237

I see nothing calling Anabaptist separated brethren.

1400 is a continuation of 1399. The bolded statements refer to all denominations, including the Anabaptists, that appeared during the years of the Reformation and afterwards. There is not a list specifically naming the large number of denominations as some no longer exist. It is from this CCC teaching that numerous Papal pastoral letters (called Encyclicals) have derived the term "separated brethren". Then there are the writings of the Bishops, etc. The term has become firmly ensconced in Catholic lexicon.

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:27 am

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:41 am

1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, ... However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."237

I see nothing calling Anabaptist separated brethren.

1400 is a continuation of 1399. The bolded statements refer to all denominations, including the Anabaptists, that appeared during the years of the Reformation and afterwards. There is not a list specifically naming the large number of denominations as some no longer exist. It is from this CCC teaching that numerous Papal pastoral letters (called Encyclicals) have derived the term "separated brethren". Then there are the writings of the Bishops, etc. The term has become firmly ensconced in Catholic lexicon.

So you can’t source it.

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:28 am

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:27 am

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:41 am


I see nothing calling Anabaptist separated brethren.

1400 is a continuation of 1399. The bolded statements refer to all denominations, including the Anabaptists, that appeared during the years of the Reformation and afterwards. There is not a list specifically naming the large number of denominations as some no longer exist. It is from this CCC teaching that numerous Papal pastoral letters (called Encyclicals) have derived the term "separated brethren". Then there are the writings of the Bishops, etc. The term has become firmly ensconced in Catholic lexicon.

So you can’t source it.

I just did. Any other questions?

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:35 am

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:28 am

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:27 am

1400 is a continuation of 1399. The bolded statements refer to all denominations, including the Anabaptists, that appeared during the years of the Reformation and afterwards. There is not a list specifically naming the large number of denominations as some no longer exist. It is from this CCC teaching that numerous Papal pastoral letters (called Encyclicals) have derived the term "separated brethren". Then there are the writings of the Bishops, etc. The term has become firmly ensconced in Catholic lexicon.

So you can’t source it.

I just did. Any other questions?

I repeat my first question then. Can you show anything referencing Anabaptist or Mennonites as separated brethren. You have not provided any evidence to support your claim.

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:28 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:44 am How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Barnhart, in order to avoid confusion on definitions, it would help me to understand and answer your query if I have more information.
How does your fellowship understand these verses?
Does your fellowship have bishops? Elders? Deacons?
How do those verses impact those positions in your fellowship?

This could be an interesting discussion but Ernie specifically requested only Catholics and Orthodox answer questions.

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:11 pm

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:28 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:44 am How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Barnhart, in order to avoid confusion on definitions, it would help me to understand and answer your query if I have more information.
How does your fellowship understand these verses?
Does your fellowship have bishops? Elders? Deacons?
How do those verses impact those positions in your fellowship?

This could be an interesting discussion but Ernie specifically requested only Catholics and Orthodox answer questions.

I am sure Ernie would not mind as it would help me to answer your questions. I covered Matthew 23 for you. The other two I need a bit of the perspective from which you understand them.

MaxPC wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:28 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:44 am How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Barnhart, in order to avoid confusion on definitions, it would help me to understand and answer your query if I have more information.
How does your fellowship understand these verses?
Does your fellowship have bishops? Elders? Deacons?
How do those verses impact those positions in your fellowship?

Could you answer the question as if the person asking it doesn’t have any understanding of what bishops, deacons etc are other than the Catholic definitions?

Questions for Catholic & Orthodox adherents or advocates:

Would you see it as ideal for your church to be the state-sanctioned church of any given country? If in theory that could once again happen, how would your church would function differently today from times past when that was the case?

mike wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:33 pm Questions for Catholic & Orthodox adherents or advocates:

Would you see it as ideal for your church to be the state-sanctioned church of any given country? Short answer, no.

If in theory that could once again happen, how would your church would function differently today from times past when that was the case?

The RCC has "been there, done that" and walked away from it in the modern era; for that reason I cannot envision it seeking to be a "state sanctioned church" in any form today, tomorrow or the next century. The history lessons of the past problems have their effect in this regard. Indeed, the RCC is battling against China's insistence upon its own state sanctioned version of the Catholic Church.

There is the independent Vatican city-state to house the administrative and scholarly resources of the RCC. With 1.2 billion members that is a lot of paperwork . It has less than 500 people and occupies approximately 100 acres. It does have its own diplomatic corps and technically is not a part of any other nation. That is about as close to an official state Catholic church that the modern world will see.