Constantine, Religion, and Power

[Bootstrap]

I started a thread on Rome, Religion, and Power. Here, I would like to continue the thread up through the Mennonites and Anabaptists.

When Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine, a lot of the old Roman way of thinking about power and religion came right back in through the back door. The church moved from being a persecuted minority to having the power of the state behind it. Over time, that alliance between church and empire led to forced conversions, state-backed violence, and persecution of anyone who disagreed.

You can even see this mixture in Constantine’s coins. On one side, you have the image of Sol Invictus—the Unconquered Sun God—still claiming divine favor from the old Roman religion. On the other side, the words “In this sign conquer,” tying the Christian cross to imperial conquest. If you asked the question Jesus asked his disciples, “Whose image is on this coin?” the answer was: it depends which side you look at. That tension never really went away.

Over the centuries, the same mindset led to persecution of groups like the Mennonites and other Anabaptists. The *Martyr’s Mirror* documents all kinds of verifiable abuses:

- Imprisonment and banishment for refusing to baptize infants
- Seizure of property and families driven into poverty
- Torture to force confessions or recantation
- Execution by drowning or burning
- Children taken away from their parents

Menno Simons was clear that this kind of coercion had nothing to do with the spirit of Christ. He wrote:

> “True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant; it clothes the naked, it feeds the hungry, it comforts the sorrowful... it does not force, nor overawe, nor take revenge, nor repay evil with evil.”

And Dirk Philips said:

> “Christ compels no one by force, but draws with love.”

So when the church married itself to imperial power, it started to betray its own message. The same faith that once challenged the empire’s violence became entangled in using that violence against others. Mennonites and Anabaptists emerged as a witness against that entanglement.

[donnyto989]

I appreciate how you tied Constantine’s symbols back to that unresolved tension between kingdom and empire. The fact that both Sol Invictus and the cross could sit on the same coin really does say everything. It wasn’t a clean conversion, it was a fusion, and the consequences are still with us.

[barnhart]

It is instructive how fast the compromises were made. Within a single lifespan the church moved from persecuted minority to executing the first heretic.

[JohnHurt]

When Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine, a lot of the old Roman way of thinking about power and religion came right back in through the back door.

A very good point.
Constantine was supreme over all the religions of Rome as "Pontifex Maximus", a title now held by the Pope.

Mithras was the Sun God who was born on December 25th as the hours of daylight began to grow longer. (Merry Mithras!)

The priests of Mithras were called "Fathers, the priestesses were called "Mothers", just like in Catholicism.

The "halo" or sun disk behind the heads of the "saints" portrayed in Catholicism came from the Mithraic initiation. This is where a Mithraic priest with a shaven head would sit in a darkened underground meeting room with the initiate, and ignite a petroleum product on his shaved head and briefly speak as "The Sun God". I still don't know how he did not burn his scalp to a blister, some sort of protection I suppose.

Like the halo, a LOT of what you see in Catholicism came from other religions. A good book, not entirely accurate but with more truth than any other about this is called "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop.

You can even see this mixture in Constantine’s coins. On one side, you have the image of Sol Invictus—the Unconquered Sun God—still claiming divine favor from the old Roman religion. On the other side, the words “In this sign conquer,” tying the Christian cross to imperial conquest.

The story about Constantine seeing Christ before the battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312 AD and the Chi and Rho letter (X and P) in the sky with the words "Conquer in this" - with Christ supposedly authorizing Constantine to wage war against other humans and murder them in the Name of Christ, this incredible "story" was first expressed to Christians by Eusebius in 325 AD, the same year Constantine set up the Council of Nicene - to make it seem Constantine had converted to "Christianity."

Yet 5 years after Nicene, Constantine set up his "Column of Constantine" in 330 AD, with himself at the top of the column portrayed as the Sun God Apollo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_of_Constantine



But no more persecution from Rome if you joined the Church of Constantine. The State Run Church, filled with paganism and a Counterfeit Christianity, has been the most successful method Satan has ever used to destroy True Christianity.

Over the centuries, the same mindset led to persecution of groups like the Mennonites and other Anabaptists. The *Martyr’s Mirror* documents all kinds of verifiable abuses:

- Imprisonment and banishment for refusing to baptize infants
- Seizure of property and families driven into poverty
- Torture to force confessions or recantation
- Execution by drowning or burning
- Children taken away from their parents

Menno Simons was clear that this kind of coercion had nothing to do with the spirit of Christ. He wrote:

> “True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant; it clothes the naked, it feeds the hungry, it comforts the sorrowful... it does not force, nor overawe, nor take revenge, nor repay evil with evil.”

And Dirk Philips said:

> “Christ compels no one by force, but draws with love.”

So when the church married itself to imperial power, it started to betray its own message. The same faith that once challenged the empire’s violence became entangled in using that violence against others. Mennonites and Anabaptists emerged as a witness against that entanglement.

Another good point.

Christ never authorized us to murder or even persecute heretics. And when the church seeks political power, it becomes a daughter of Constantine and behaves like the church of Constantine.
Calvin and Servetus, Luther and Carlstadt, too much political power for once humble ministers.

The Christ Like Response to someone that believes differently but does the work of Christ is this:

Luke 9:(49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
(50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

[barnhart]

Christ never authorized us to murder or even persecute heretics. And when the church seeks political power, it becomes a daughter of Constantine and behaves like the church of Constantine.
Calvin and Servetus, Luther and Carlstadt, too much political power for once humble ministers.

The Christ Like Response to someone that believes differently but does the work of Christ is this:

Luke 9:(49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
(50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

I appreciate this.

[Thomas_muntzer]

I started a thread on Rome, Religion, and Power. Here, I would like to continue the thread up through the Mennonites and Anabaptists.

When Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine, a lot of the old Roman way of thinking about power and religion came right back in through the back door. The church moved from being a persecuted minority to having the power of the state behind it. Over time, that alliance between church and empire led to forced conversions, state-backed violence, and persecution of anyone who disagreed.

You can even see this mixture in Constantine’s coins. On one side, you have the image of Sol Invictus—the Unconquered Sun God—still claiming divine favor from the old Roman religion. On the other side, the words “In this sign conquer,” tying the Christian cross to imperial conquest. If you asked the question Jesus asked his disciples, “Whose image is on this coin?” the answer was: it depends which side you look at. That tension never really went away.

Over the centuries, the same mindset led to persecution of groups like the Mennonites and other Anabaptists. The *Martyr’s Mirror* documents all kinds of verifiable abuses:

- Imprisonment and banishment for refusing to baptize infants
- Seizure of property and families driven into poverty
- Torture to force confessions or recantation
- Execution by drowning or burning
- Children taken away from their parents

Menno Simons was clear that this kind of coercion had nothing to do with the spirit of Christ. He wrote:

> “True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant; it clothes the naked, it feeds the hungry, it comforts the sorrowful... it does not force, nor overawe, nor take revenge, nor repay evil with evil.”

And Dirk Philips said:

> “Christ compels no one by force, but draws with love.”

So when the church married itself to imperial power, it started to betray its own message. The same faith that once challenged the empire’s violence became entangled in using that violence against others. Mennonites and Anabaptists emerged as a witness against that entanglement.

Many historians claim that Christianity socially conquered the Roman Empire during Constantine's reign. I believe it was rather the opposite: the Roman Empire conquered Christianity, especially in the way theological questions were debated and discerned. The inspiration of the Holy Spirit was abandoned in favor of the sword. The way the debate between the Trinity and Arianism ended—with a punch to the face of Bishop Arius—seems completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

[Valerie]

I started a thread on Rome, Religion, and Power. Here, I would like to continue the thread up through the Mennonites and Anabaptists.

When Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine, a lot of the old Roman way of thinking about power and religion came right back in through the back door. The church moved from being a persecuted minority to having the power of the state behind it. Over time, that alliance between church and empire led to forced conversions, state-backed violence, and persecution of anyone who disagreed.

You can even see this mixture in Constantine’s coins. On one side, you have the image of Sol Invictus—the Unconquered Sun God—still claiming divine favor from the old Roman religion. On the other side, the words “In this sign conquer,” tying the Christian cross to imperial conquest. If you asked the question Jesus asked his disciples, “Whose image is on this coin?” the answer was: it depends which side you look at. That tension never really went away.

Over the centuries, the same mindset led to persecution of groups like the Mennonites and other Anabaptists. The *Martyr’s Mirror* documents all kinds of verifiable abuses:

- Imprisonment and banishment for refusing to baptize infants
- Seizure of property and families driven into poverty
- Torture to force confessions or recantation
- Execution by drowning or burning
- Children taken away from their parents

Menno Simons was clear that this kind of coercion had nothing to do with the spirit of Christ. He wrote:

> “True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant; it clothes the naked, it feeds the hungry, it comforts the sorrowful... it does not force, nor overawe, nor take revenge, nor repay evil with evil.”

And Dirk Philips said:

> “Christ compels no one by force, but draws with love.”

So when the church married itself to imperial power, it started to betray its own message. The same faith that once challenged the empire’s violence became entangled in using that violence against others. Mennonites and Anabaptists emerged as a witness against that entanglement.

Many historians claim that Christianity socially conquered the Roman Empire during Constantine's reign. I believe it was rather the opposite: the Roman Empire conquered Christianity, especially in the way theological questions were debated and discerned. The inspiration of the Holy Spirit was abandoned in favor of the sword. The way the debate between the Trinity and Arianism ended—with a punch to the face of Bishop Arius—seems completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Well Nicholas was “in the flesh” for a moment so not his general practice, Lord have mercy, and we can be about as bad on this forum at times with anger aroused occasionally, mi can picture a whack here & there

[JohnHurt]

Many historians claim that Christianity socially conquered the Roman Empire during Constantine's reign. I believe it was rather the opposite: the Roman Empire conquered Christianity, especially in the way theological questions were debated and discerned. The inspiration of the Holy Spirit was abandoned in favor of the sword. The way the debate between the Trinity and Arianism ended—with a punch to the face of Bishop Arius—seems completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

What is amazing is that they would fight over something that does not concern them. Fighting over the "Trinity" or the Nature of God - these concepts are far above humans to understand, much less that we should kill each other to "do something about it."

Christ has given us our talents, and told us to "Occupy till I come." Luke 19:13 That is all we have to do, - to do what Christ has instructed.

In the Great Commission, we are told to go and teach all nations. What did Christ tell us to teach?

Christ never told us to teach the Trinity or Arianism, Transubstantion or Consubstantion, Eternal Security, Predestination, TULIP, the Book of Revelation, the Book of Acts, the writings of Peter, the writings of Paul, the writings of James or John. Christ never told us to teach any of these things, even if everyone else does it.

Here is what Christ authorized us to teach in the Great Commission, and no one does what He instructed:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Christ instructed us to teach His words, and no other. The Words of Christ do not belong to "another Dispensation", they belong to us here and now.

This is how Constantine destroyed Christianity, he replaced the study of the Words of Christ with the study of the doctrines of men.

Teaching that the Pope is infallible, and speaks ex cathedra or as the Voice of God, is a lie against the instructions of Christ.

Christ said that He would be our only teacher, our only Master (Matt 23:8,10)

Christ is our only Shepherd (John 10:16) and He said this:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: verse 27
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. verse 5

Constantine and the Catholic Church is another Shepherd, in the place of Christ, the anti-Christ, who speaks as Christ, but is not my Shepherd. I don't know the voice of the Constantine ministers. I am the sheep of Christ and I flee from these shepherds who teach the doctrines of men.

I went to a church last Sunday, and at the Bible study we read the Heidelberg catechism. Not only did the catechism have some issues, but the notes on how to interpret the catechism were completely flawed. It would have been better for us to read the "Words in Red" in the Book of Matthew, and listen to our Only Shepherd, than to read what other men have written about various topics that Christ never authorized.

As Christ said "Matt 15:(9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

The greatest crime the Church of Constantine has made against Christ is this: They have elevated the doctrines of men to be superior to "whatsoever things Christ has commanded us" in the Great Commission. And through their selection of the books to be added into the "New Testament" canon, they have elevated the last 23 books of the NT canon to be equal if not greater (through dispensationalism) than the first four books containing the very Doctrines of Christ that He authorized us to teach, and no other.

This is the anti-Christ, or "in place of Christ" established by Constantine and practiced by nearly every church today. Only a few men like Leo Tolstoy and Thomas Jefferson have understood this, that the doctrines of Christ, that is all the "New Testament Canon" we need.

The church moved from being a persecuted minority to having the power of the state behind it.

The persecuted minority still exists, it never became the State run church. They have always been separate.

[barnhart]

...
What is amazing is that they would fight over something that does not concern them. Fighting over the "Trinity" or the Nature of God - these concepts are far above humans to understand, much less that we should kill each other to "do something about it."

Christ has given us our talents, and told us to "Occupy till I come." Luke 19:13 That is all we have to do, - to do what Christ has instructed.

In the Great Commission, we are told to go and teach all nations. What did Christ tell us to teach?

Christ never told us to teach the Trinity or Arianism, Transubstantion or Consubstantion, Eternal Security, Predestination, TULIP, the Book of Revelation, the Book of Acts, the writings of Peter, the writings of Paul, the writings of James or John. Christ never told us to teach any of these things, even if everyone else does it.

Here is what Christ authorized us to teach in the Great Commission, and no one does what He instructed:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Christ instructed us to teach His words, and no other. The Words of Christ do not belong to "another Dispensation", they belong to us here and now...

You and do not see eye to eye on many things but here we agree entirely. This is golden.

A related idea Jesus specifically warned us against is creating hierarchical systems of power. He told us not to "Lord over" others as that is a distinguishing mark of the gentiles, yet it's easy to find people doing just that, inside and outside the church, all the while saying they are doing it for Jesus.

[MattY]

Christ never told us to teach the Trinity or Arianism, Transubstantion or Consubstantion, Eternal Security, Predestination, TULIP, the Book of Revelation, the Book of Acts, the writings of Peter, the writings of Paul, the writings of James or John. Christ never told us to teach any of these things, even if everyone else does it.

The Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of Paul - and the other apostles - are the same. Full Stop. "Be imitators of me, as I also am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1). We are to teach the whole counsel of God. Jesus himself said, "I have many things yet to say to you" (John 16:12). And it was not for lack of time that He had not said them yet, but "you are not yet able to bear them." But He would send the Spirit, who would lead them into all truth. It was not merely about understanding truth already given (illumination) but about receiving truth not yet given (new revelation).

I noticed the website called "jesuswordsonly" says "johnhurt.com" at the bottom. A sample of the articles:

55. Paul's cavalier attitude about eating meat sacrificed idols at an idol's temple (2/6/2015)
55. Jesus's View of Grace Contrasted to Paul's (5/6/2016) -- This is very convicting - be warned!
56. Messianic Congregations' Solutions to the Problem of Paul (5/21/2016).
57. Proof Apostle John Was Critical of Paul (7/3/2016)
58. Why I Don't Follow Paul and Instead Follow Jesus Only - Email Exchange (7/26/2016)
59. Parallel of Paul To Pharisees' Traits Jesus Criticized (8/2016)
60. The Discerning Disobedience of the Rechabites; A Lesson about Paul (8/21/2016)
61. Paul's Gospel versus the Gospel of Jesus (11/5/2016)
62. Proofs the 12 Apostles Rejected Paul (11/20/2016)
63. Response to Critic on Whether Paul Permits Eating Idol Meat (11/20/2016)
64. The Movie Interstellar and God's Messages on Paulinism (12/4/2016)
65. Answering about the Angel of Blinding Light Outside Damascus (12/10/2016)
66. Mammon is Root Prop of Paulinism (1/25/2017)
67. Book Review of Gray's Paul as a Problem in History and Culture (4/2/2017)
68. Twelve Apostles Refuse to Commend Paul (4/30/2017)
69. Heretical Dualism of 2 Distinct Gods - the Son and Father - in Paul (5/9/2017)
70. Review of Polite Bribe movie - A Slander of Bishop James (6/16/2017)
71. Jesus' Gospel v. Paul's Amoral Non-Yahweh Gospel (6/23/2017)

This is a false gospel and not anywhere close to the Anabaptists' teaching. Frankly heresy of this nature puts your soul in peril. Be warned.

By contrast, listen to what Jesus Himself says of Paul:

I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Acts 26:16-18