Christian parties in Europe

[PetrChelcicky]

Bootstrap somewhere here disapproved the existence of a "Christian Democratic" and a "Christian Social" Party in Germany. That disapproval is often expressed in Germany, too. But is it justified?
Catholic parties started in the mid 19th century, in particular where Catholics were a minority. Taking part in elections was, at that time, not a conservative issue, but rather a progressive issue.
The case which unified Catholics was the intention to defend themselves against attacks on their historical rights and their property. On one hand against the aggressive secularist-neopagan tendency on the left, on the other hand against the state. Catholic political theory developed a system called "subsidiarism" which proclaimed that popular associations (like themselves) ought to be allowed to administer themselves as far as they were able to do it (i.e. didn't essentially depend on public money or police).
Politically, those parties were centrist and even "liberal" in the European sense of the word. For instance, the Catholic Party in France before 1914 was le parti libéral. This changed after 1918, when all over Europe the Catholic population became more and more polarized between a left and a right wing. Nevertheless, German Catholics around 1918-20 were still bound together by the fight against secularist-socialist school policy (whereas in pre-modern time every state had its own religion and schools, most German states before 1918 were used to finance Protestant as well as Catholic schools according to the proportions in the local population.) This led to the longstanding Weimar coalition (by which the Catholics successfully blocked attacks against Catholic schools), but involvement in government policy meant that the Catholic Party had to take a lot of decisions in which Catholic Social Ethics had no definitive answer and the Catholic people were divided. So when Weimar was finished, a lot of the Catholic clergy were relieved that they could give up the Catholic Party.
On the other hand, the growing conflicts with the National Socialist regime and the afterwar danger of a return to secularist-socialist attacks meant the Catholics became more forged together and the Catholic Party was reestablished (as they were in France and Italy). But this time with a definite opening for members of other Christian denominations. Thereafter the German political development tended to a two-party system in which the German "Christian Democrats" played the part of the American "Republicans" and the British "Conservatives" (the different names notwithstanding). This development has now stopped, too, and the future is undecided (the French MRP disappeared, mostly into the new-formed party of De Gaulle; the Italian Democrazia Cristiana, after some glorious decades, crushed nearly totally). Catholic Parties have been most long-living where Catholics are a strong minority, like in Switzerland or the Netherlands; there they have even stimulated the founding of parallel protestant/evangelical parties, the latter also existing in Scandinavia.

The interesting question here seems to be: How far are Christians allowed to defend themselves, their own interests as an association and their presumed rights - even if the Constitution allows for it? The most radical answer was given by Karl Barth who, around 1960, proclaimed that the Protestants in Communist Germany (the GDR) should give up all claims to their own instutions or rights andabstain from defending themselves (opponents responded that that was not just what Barth's Confessing Church had done between 1933 and 1945). It is an interesting question, but I will not try to solve it here.

[Ken]

I've always understood Christian Democratic parties in modern European countries like Germany and Spain to simply be establishment center-right parties on the ideological spectrum and no more overtly "Christian" than any other political party at the same spot on the ideological spectrum with a different name.

For example, If I were to look up the platform of the Christian Democrats in Germany I suspect I would find mostly or entirely ordinary center-right policy positions and proposals and not much in the way of overtly pro-Christian policy proposals of the sort that one might find in a theocratic country. Like the orthodox Jewish parties in Israel. And I would expect voters to choose the Christian Democrats based primarily on their position on the left-right spectrum, not because of any overt pro-Christian agenda.

Am I wrong about that?

[barnhart]

The interesting question here seems to be: How far are Christians allowed to defend themselves, their own interests as an association and their presumed rights - even if the Constitution allows for it?

Yes, interesting question with big implications.

[MaxPC]

Is this a political thread?

[Ken]

Is this a political thread?

Yes,

Although I'm not exactly clear at what point politics becomes history. 25 years ago? 50 years ago? 100 years ago?

[Heirbyadoption]

Is this a political thread?

Yes,

Although I'm not exactly clear at what point politics becomes history. 25 years ago? 50 years ago? 100 years ago?

And yet in another sense, it's not.... Assuming the majority of the discussion participants are some stripe of Anabaptist, its the very relevant question of where do we practically choose to draw, or see the Scriptures as having drawn, the line with the Biblical principle often termed "nonresistance"...

[Ken]

Is this a political thread?

Yes,

Although I'm not exactly clear at what point politics becomes history. 25 years ago? 50 years ago? 100 years ago?

And yet in another sense, it's not.... Assuming the majority of the discussion participants are some stripe of Anabaptist, its the very relevant question of where do we practically choose to draw, or see the Scriptures as having drawn, the line with the Biblical principle often termed "nonresistance"...

The following discussion question is an inherently political question. Although not necessary a partisan red/blue question, although it could easily become that since the political parties come down differently the issue, depending on the context. The political process is exactly how Christians would "defend themselves, their own interests as an association, and their presumed rights" Another way to state the same question would be to ask: "To what extent should Christians participate in politics in defense of Christianity?"

PetrChelcicky wrote:

The interesting question here seems to be: How far are Christians allowed to defend themselves, their own interests as an association and their presumed rights - even if the Constitution allows for it?

In the US context, if answered with anything other than "not at all" that question quickly degenerates into discussions of wedding cake bakers, gay marriage, transgender rights, Christian adoptions and foster care, Affordable Care Act (Little Sisters and Hobby Lobby) and so forth.

On the other hand, this is a thread about European politics. I suspect in the European context the hot button issues are different, but no less political. In fact, I'm curious what they would be. I suspect there are very hot button issues emerging in countries like Poland and Hungary where overtly Christian Conservative parties have taken power. I just haven't paid enough attention to know what they are.

[ohio jones]

Although not necessary a partisan red/blue question, although it could easily become that ...

So don't contribute to it becoming that.

Back to the subject of Ausbund festivals and fondue potlucks, please.

[Bootstrap]

Bootstrap somewhere here disapproved the existence of a "Christian Democratic" and a "Christian Social" Party in Germany.

Not quite. I can't control what the world chooses to name their political parties. I don't know that I disapprove of the existence of these parties. But I do think Christians should realize these are not particularly Christian.

Here's the post. Here's what I said:

Clearly, spending time on our knees praying and putting everything in God's hands is essential.

To me, a big part of the problem is the outrage, the grievance, and the political partisan identity. I think we need to make Jesus our identity and not join political tribes. I think we need a discerning critical distance from any political movement. In Germany, one party is called the Christian Democratic Union, another is called the Christian Social Union, neither party is Christian in any sense I understand.

I know people who do not vote but are clearly very devoted to political figures and political parties and movements. I know people who do not vote but insist that only stridently partisan news sources are acceptable. Some of these people are very vocal on social media. Some of the most prominent Christian leaders in America look like that, and they are giving Christianity a bad name among many.

We need a Christianity that looks like Jesus.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Although not necessary a partisan red/blue question, although it could easily become that ...

So don't contribute to it becoming that.

Back to the subject of Ausbund festivals and fondue potlucks, please.

Do Ausbund festivals really happen? How can I find one?

J.M.