The End of History

[Bootstrap]

If the Bible is true, then political discourse can start a lot of fires, with real consequences.

And really, even without the Bible, that's just plain common sense.

[Bootstrap]

I really don't think that's true of all post-liberalism. There are some very articulate thinkers who are proposing (and executing) an alternative to liberalism. The crew in Steubenville, guided by Andrew Willard Jones comes to mind.

Isn't Andrew Willard Jones proposing something very like Augustine's Two Cities? Isn't that what Mennonites rejected way back in the beginning of our common history?

[ken_sylvania]

I find it bizarre that you as a Christian don't believe that words can lead to actions either good or bad. That is the entire premise of Christianity. That words have meaning and can lead to actions.

I have found that the underlying premise of Christianity is much more than words. Entering into relationship with and doing the will of Jesus our Redeemer, is by far more important than the words we as His followers utter.

Is that really what Jesus taught?

Yes.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Not that words are not important. But that actions are even more important.

[Bootstrap]

Is that really what Jesus taught?

Yes.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Not that words are not important. But that actions are even more important.

Taken together, I think Jesus is saying:

1. Bad speech really matters, just like other bad behavior.
2. Claiming to be good or claiming to do good doesn't mean anything if you don't back it up with good actions. But those good actions include good speech.

I don't think Jesus ever says anything remotely like "you can tear people apart with your speech, spread false rumors, encourage people to hate on other individuals, as long as you don't follow up with physical action it doesn't really matter". He does say "you can parade around your righteousness all you want, if you don't follow up with real action, it doesn't mean anything". Which is a real danger of the like button and in-groups on social media, fwiw. Let me know if I'm missing places where Jesus says something like that.

If someone keeps saying how Christian they are while spreading false rumors with strong words, just the way someone speaks when they really, really hate someone, well, there's some inconsistency there.

Taking this back to the topic of this thread, as Fukiyama uses the term "liberal democracy", America has been that since its founding, its in our Constitution. For America, the alternative to that seems to be dissolving into factions who loathe each other. Perhaps with a lot of help from Christians who join right in on that kind of political speech.

[Josh]

The problem who defines white “bad speech” is

The entire left has decided that “A man cannot get pregnant” is “bad speech”. I don’t think it is. And I don’t think it’s wrong for Christians to say “a man cannot get pregnant” in the city square and in the public sphere.

[GaryK]

I find it bizarre that you as a Christian don't believe that words can lead to actions either good or bad. That is the entire premise of Christianity. That words have meaning and can lead to actions.

I have found that the underlying premise of Christianity is much more than words. Entering into relationship with and doing the will of Jesus our Redeemer, is by far more important than the words we as His followers utter.

Is that really what Jesus taught?

I don't think so. And I don't think politics is a loophole for Christians. But it often feels like there's some kind of contest to see who can most loudly spread the most vicious rumors against political enemies, without even paying attention to evidence. All the while feeling very self-righteous about the whole affair. That's not Christlike.

As you will notice, I edited out anything that had to do with politics and was only referring to Ken's assertion that the entire premise of Christianity is that words have meaning and can lead to actions. I said nothing remotely close to anything political. Please stop insinuating that I was saying something more than I said! That's not Christlike either.

[Bootstrap]

As you will notice, I edited out anything that had to do with politics and was only referring to Ken's assertion that the entire premise of Christianity is that words have meaning and can lead to actions.

It's not "the entire premise of Christianity", but Jesus and James and others have plenty to say about hateful speech and sinful speech. It's a VERY significant theme in New Testament teaching.

I said nothing remotely close to anything political. Please stop insinuating that I was saying something more than I said! That's not Christlike either.

This is a political thread, about politics. Much of the discussion has been about politics. That's why I mentioned politics here. That wasn't a statement about you.

[Ken]

I have found that the underlying premise of Christianity is much more than words. Entering into relationship with and doing the will of Jesus our Redeemer, is by far more important than the words we as His followers utter.

Is that really what Jesus taught?

I don't think so. And I don't think politics is a loophole for Christians. But it often feels like there's some kind of contest to see who can most loudly spread the most vicious rumors against political enemies, without even paying attention to evidence. All the while feeling very self-righteous about the whole affair. That's not Christlike.

As you will notice, I edited out anything that had to do with politics and was only referring to Ken's assertion that the entire premise of Christianity is that words have meaning and can lead to actions. I said nothing remotely close to anything political. Please stop insinuating that I was saying something more than I said! That's not Christlike either.

How would you define the Great Commission?

And how central is it to Christianity?

[GaryK]

As you will notice, I edited out anything that had to do with politics and was only referring to Ken's assertion that the entire premise of Christianity is that words have meaning and can lead to actions.

It's not "the entire premise of Christianity", but Jesus and James and others have plenty to say about hateful speech and sinful speech. It's a VERY significant theme in New Testament teaching.

I said nothing remotely close to anything political. Please stop insinuating that I was saying something more than I said! That's not Christlike either.

This is a political thread, about politics. Much of the discussion has been about politics. That's why I mentioned politics here. That wasn't a statement about you.

If it wasn't a statement about me, then perhaps responding to what I actually said rather than immediately bringing politics into your response to me and insinuating things would have been the more appropriate and Christlike thing to do.

[GaryK]

Is that really what Jesus taught?

I don't think so. And I don't think politics is a loophole for Christians. But it often feels like there's some kind of contest to see who can most loudly spread the most vicious rumors against political enemies, without even paying attention to evidence. All the while feeling very self-righteous about the whole affair. That's not Christlike.

As you will notice, I edited out anything that had to do with politics and was only referring to Ken's assertion that the entire premise of Christianity is that words have meaning and can lead to actions. I said nothing remotely close to anything political. Please stop insinuating that I was saying something more than I said! That's not Christlike either.

How would you define the Great Commission?

And how central is it to Christianity?

I can't define it any better than Jesus did and I believe anyone who is serious about doing the will of Jesus will find the Great Commission to be a way of life that puts Jesus' Kingdom front and center.