400 Years of African Slavery in America

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Josh
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Only an Anz wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:22 pm
Neto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.
While I do know that my family owned slaves, I don't have an answer for this. As it stands, the person who I am friends with who's my relative due to slavery is more well-off than I am. It is certainly something to think about.
Some of my ancestors left a slave state due to moral objections of living amongst slavery and doing business with slaveholders. (A lot of Quakers felt this way.) They then helped operate the Underground Railroad in their town, and also established a town for runaway slaves who decided to stay in Ohio and not continue on into Canada.

However, that doesn’t make me and Only An Anz somehow worse or better or more or less responsible than each other. We are responsible for what each of us do, not what our ancestors might or might not have done.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Only an Anz »

Josh wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:29 pm
Only an Anz wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:22 pm
Neto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.
While I do know that my family owned slaves, I don't have an answer for this. As it stands, the person who I am friends with who's my relative due to slavery is more well-off than I am. It is certainly something to think about.
Some of my ancestors left a slave state due to moral objections of living amongst slavery and doing business with slaveholders. (A lot of Quakers felt this way.) They then helped operate the Underground Railroad in their town, and also established a town for runaway slaves who decided to stay in Ohio and not continue on into Canada.

However, that doesn’t make me and Only An Anz somehow worse or better or more or less responsible than each other. We are responsible for what each of us do, not what our ancestors might or might not have done.
I have previously asked you not to speak for others (i.e. myself)
But I'll reiterate:

You. Do not. Speak. For me.
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Bootstrap
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Bootstrap »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:42 pm Interesting topic Dan, given that the punditry has spent the last week debating the efficacy of the NYT's "1619 Project". Consonantly, I read an interesting little exhortation to sanity and humility from Dr. Phil Jenkins at Baylor today and thought it fit well with the discussion in this thread.
One may protest that a white European Christian civilization that allowed slavery was by its nature so thoroughly tainted that it represented a kind of cancer on the earth, which needs to be purged from history. But we would then need to ask what point of reference we are using to condemn that culture, and whom we might celebrate in its place. Historically, where do we find cultures that rejected and condemned slavery as an institution, and which posed stern moral objections to the fact of slavery? Such did exist, notably in much of Christian medieval Europe. But where else? Not, of course, in the Classical world; nor in the world of Islam until very modern times; nor in many modern African communities; nor in Persian or Indian or Chinese history; nor among Native Americans, Aztecs, or Mayans. Not only were these slave societies, but the slavery principle remained uncontested.
The link didn't work for me. This seems to be the correct link:

https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/remembering-slavery/

I agree with is overall point. Let's face it, I would rather live in modern America than in most countries at most times. Slavery was terrible, but hardly unique - and it still continues in some places today. Still, it's an important part of our history, and we need to come to terms with it.

Question, though - is he quoting something from the 1619 Project when he ways "One may protest that a white European Christian civilization that allowed slavery was by its nature so thoroughly tainted that it represented a kind of cancer on the earth, which needs to be purged from history"? Or quoting something someone else said? Or just rabble-rousing by suggesting this is what others would believe?

That does not sound what I read in Nikole Hannah-Jones' Introductory Article for the 1619 Project.
Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote:At 43, I am part of the first generation of black Americans in the history of the United States to be born into a society in which black people had full rights of citizenship. Black people suffered under slavery for 250 years; we have been legally “free” for just 50. Yet in that briefest of spans, despite continuing to face rampant discrimination, and despite there never having been a genuine effort to redress the wrongs of slavery and the century of racial apartheid that followed, black Americans have made astounding progress, not only for ourselves but also for all Americans.

What if America understood, finally, in this 400th year, that we have never been the problem but the solution?

When I was a child — I must have been in fifth or sixth grade — a teacher gave our class an assignment intended to celebrate the diversity of the great American melting pot. She instructed each of us to write a short report on our ancestral land and then draw that nation’s flag. As she turned to write the assignment on the board, the other black girl in class locked eyes with me. Slavery had erased any connection we had to an African country, and even if we tried to claim the whole continent, there was no “African” flag. It was hard enough being one of two black kids in the class, and this assignment would just be another reminder of the distance between the white kids and us. In the end, I walked over to the globe near my teacher’s desk, picked a random African country and claimed it as my own.

I wish, now, that I could go back to the younger me and tell her that her people’s ancestry started here, on these lands, and to boldly, proudly, draw the stars and those stripes of the American flag.

We were told once, by virtue of our bondage, that we could never be American. But it was by virtue of our bondage that we became the most American of all.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Only an Anz wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:45 pm
Josh wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:29 pm
Only an Anz wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:22 pm

While I do know that my family owned slaves, I don't have an answer for this. As it stands, the person who I am friends with who's my relative due to slavery is more well-off than I am. It is certainly something to think about.
Some of my ancestors left a slave state due to moral objections of living amongst slavery and doing business with slaveholders. (A lot of Quakers felt this way.) They then helped operate the Underground Railroad in their town, and also established a town for runaway slaves who decided to stay in Ohio and not continue on into Canada.

However, that doesn’t make me and Only An Anz somehow worse or better or more or less responsible than each other. We are responsible for what each of us do, not what our ancestors might or might not have done.
I have previously asked you not to speak for others (i.e. myself)
But I'll reiterate:

You. Do not. Speak. For me.
I spoke for myself.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

And who should be paid? What exactly would the goal be, and how would we know if we had reached it?

I would rather put the money into good schools where they do not exist, improving policing in places where there are real problems, etc.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:14 pm
Neto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

And who should be paid? What exactly would the goal be, and how would we know if we had reached it?

I would rather put the money into good schools where they do not exist, improving policing in places where there are real problems, etc.
None of us are in charge of the government, and governments will continue to do what they do best - help the rich get richer (like they did last year). So the real question is what each of us should do personally.

The Bible doesn’t say anything about putting money into good schools or improving policing, but it does have a lot to say about how New Testament believers used their wealth to help each other and help the poor. Maybe we should focus on that instead of debating policy.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

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I read Ta-Neshi Coates’s 2014 essay, “The Case for Reparations” in response to this discussion. What Coates says about reparations is I think an important insight about how we understand ourselves as Americans and our history.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/361631/

It’s a long piece that draws together a number of threads that focus on the ways that white (often aided by the government) have stolen and robbed from blacks since the Civil War. While Coates does talk about slavery, he also points out issues that have occurred in living memory. Most of Coates’s piece deals with discriminatory housing policies and predatory lending as vehicles to rob Black people of their wealth and their ability to be economically successful.

For examples, Coates profiles Clyde Ross, a Chicago housing activist. As a child in 1930’s Mississippi, the state seized the family farm claiming his family owed $3,000 in back taxes. Ross’s father was illiterate, couldn’t afford a lawyer and had no way to contest the claim. The authorities seized the family’s land and livestock. Ross’s family resorted to sharecropping, which was a system designed to exploit workers and entrap them in debt.
This was hardly unusual. In 2001, the Associated Press published a three-part investigation into the theft of black-owned land stretching back to the antebellum period. The series documented some 406 victims and 24,000 acres of land valued at tens of millions of dollars. The land was taken through means ranging from legal chicanery to terrorism. “Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia,” the AP reported, as well as “oil fields in Mississippi” and “a baseball spring training facility in Florida.”
As and adult in Chicago, Ross faced housing discrimination and redlining:
Ross had tried to get a legitimate mortgage in another neighborhood, but was told by a loan officer that there was no financing available. The truth was that there was no financing for people like Clyde Ross. From the 1930s through the 1960s, black people across the country were largely cut out of the legitimate home-mortgage market through means both legal and extralegal. Chicago whites employed every measure, from “restrictive covenants” to bombings, to keep their neighborhoods segregated.

Their efforts were buttressed by the federal government. In 1934, Congress created the Federal Housing Administration. The FHA insured private mortgages, causing a drop in interest rates and a decline in the size of the down payment required to buy a house. But an insured mortgage was not a possibility for Clyde Ross. The FHA had adopted a system of maps that rated neighborhoods according to their perceived stability. On the maps, green areas, rated “A,” indicated “in demand” neighborhoods that, as one appraiser put it, lacked “a single foreigner or Negro.” These neighborhoods were considered excellent prospects for insurance. Neighborhoods where black people lived were rated “D” and were usually considered ineligible for FHA backing. They were colored in red. Neither the percentage of black people living there nor their social class mattered. Black people were viewed as a contagion. Redlining went beyond FHA-backed loans and spread to the entire mortgage industry, which was already rife with racism, excluding black people from most legitimate means of obtaining a mortgage.
Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, “Never again.” But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us.

Broach the topic of reparations today and a barrage of questions inevitably follows: Who will be paid? How much will they be paid? Who will pay? But if the practicalities, not the justice, of reparations are the true sticking point, there has for some time been the beginnings of a solution. For the past 25 years, Congressman John Conyers Jr., who represents the Detroit area, has marked every session of Congress by introducing a bill calling for a congressional study of slavery and its lingering effects as well as recommendations for “appropriate remedies.”
Coates notes that Conyers’s bill, which only calls for the study of reparations , has never made it to the House floor. He argues that the failure to take up the Conyers bill is a sign that the concerns about reparations are “rooted not in the impracticality of reparations” but that if the conditions of Black America are “precisely what you’d expect of a community that for centuries has lived in America’s crosshairs, then what are we to make of the world’s oldest democracy?” In other words, the question of reparations is not just an economic one, but also an existential one.

I think Coates is right here — the objection to the 1619 Project and reparations is on one level a refusal to reckon with the history that America was structurally built — through slavery, terrorism, segregation, federal law, local law, socially, economically, etc. — for the preferential treatment of white people. Many of us are not ready for that reckoning, so there’s a lot of screaming about the dangers of “Cultural Marxism” and “Critical Race Theory” and people like Josh demand that black people legitimize their pain to them. The issue here isn’t really money, but identity and understanding who we are as a people.
Perhaps after a serious discussion and debate—the kind that HR 40 proposes—we may find that the country can never fully repay African Americans. But we stand to discover much about ourselves in such a discussion—and that is perhaps what scares us. The idea of reparations is frightening not simply because we might lack the ability to pay. The idea of reparations threatens something much deeper—America’s heritage, history, and standing in the world.
And here Coates is spot on:
And so we must imagine a new country. Reparations—by which I mean the full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences—is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely. The recovering alcoholic may well have to live with his illness for the rest of his life. But at least he is not living a drunken lie. Reparations beckons us to reject the intoxication of hubris and see America as it is—the work of fallible humans.

Won’t reparations divide us? Not any more than we are already divided. The wealth gap merely puts a number on something we feel but cannot say—that American prosperity was ill-gotten and selective in its distribution. What is needed is an airing of family secrets, a settling with old ghosts. What is needed is a healing of the American psyche and the banishment of white guilt.

What I’m talking about is more than recompense for past injustices—more than a handout, a payoff, hush money, or a reluctant bribe. What I’m talking about is a national reckoning that would lead to spiritual renewal. Reparations would mean the end of scarfing hot dogs on the Fourth of July while denying the facts of our heritage. Reparations would mean the end of yelling “patriotism” while waving a Confederate flag. Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.
Coats concludes:
Perhaps no number can fully capture the multi-century plunder of black people in America. Perhaps the number is so large that it can’t be imagined, let alone calculated and dispensed. But I believe that wrestling publicly with these questions matters as much as—if not more than—the specific answers that might be produced. An America that asks what it owes its most vulnerable citizens is improved and humane. An America that looks away is ignoring not just the sins of the past but the sins of the present and the certain sins of the future. More important than any single check cut to any African American, the payment of reparations would represent America’s maturation out of the childhood myth of its innocence into a wisdom worthy of its founders.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

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Szdfan wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:13 pmI think Coates is right here — the objection to the 1619 Project and reparations is on one level a refusal to reckon with the history that America was structurally built — through slavery, terrorism, segregation, federal law, local law, socially, economically, etc. — for the preferential treatment of white people. Many of us are not ready for that reckoning, so there’s a lot of screaming about the dangers of “Cultural Marxism” and “Critical Race Theory” and people like Josh demand that black people legitimize their pain to them. The issue here isn’t really money, but identity and understanding who we are as a people.
I think that is exactly right. The amount of moral panic that this one particular take on American history has generated on the right is truly breathtaking. Legislatures in red states are wasting time trying to censor this material in their public schools. Conservative authors all over are parsing this work with microscopes, looking for the slightest mis-statement to jump on. The reaction this work has stirred up is quite astonishing.

Every work of American history uses its own filters from which to view the past. The 1619 project uses slavery and race and I found it both informative and thought-provoking. As was the accompanying podcasts. But it is just one of many parallel histories that one could write about the American experience.

One could write a history of America from the point of view of immigration and come up with a completely different narrative.

Image

One could write a religious history of America that would paint a completely different picture

Image

One could write a Native American history that would look completely different still

Image

One could write a military history of the United States

Image

Or a business history of the United States

Image

All of them would be informative of our past, and all of them will help explain our present. But none of them would paint a complete and comprehensive picture of this country. In fact, hundreds of different histories of this country are written every year from every conceivable point of view and emphasis. And all of them present new points of view. In fact, all history is either revisionist history or plagiarism.

Why is it that the only one to generate the slightest notice or attention not to mention all the fear and loathing is the the one that focuses on slavery and race? I find that both curious and telling.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Ken wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:34 pm
HondurasKeiser wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:05 pm
Only an Anz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:42 pm


"Look at them, they're worse than us...?" Using the smokescreen argument of someone (from Baylor, no less) here hardly seems the thing to do.
What’s the matter with Baylor?
I don't know. Perhaps it is that the denomination that runs Baylor was explicitly founded in support of slavery and to provide a safe refuge for slaveowners? That the university administration virulently supported the Confederate cause and encouraged faculty and students to join the fight for slavery and against abolition? Or perhaps that Baylor operated as a segregated whites-only university until 1963, a full 100 years after the end of the Civil War? Perhaps it is rather unseemly for Baylor to deflect and point to say the Aztecs and say "look at them...they were worse than us"
It was a simple question that did not require a sarcastic response. I agree with Josh; your logic is faulty.
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by JimFoxvog »

Neto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay?
Paying reparations is a serious question worth considering. I don't have an answer. Some facts to consider:

1) Not all descendants of slaves are poor. Not all blacks are descendants of slaves. Many people won't be able to document their ancestry back to the days of slavery.
2) Not all whites are rich.
3) Not all whites are descendants of slave owners.

I would start with the biblical example of the Jubilee. Possibilities I've thought of include:
Forgive debts.
Redistribute wealth more equally.
Have a high inheritance tax.
Real estate can't be inherited more than 2 or 3 generations.

So the quick answer as to "who should pay" would be "those who can."
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