Discussion about the Holocaust

[JohnHurt]

Surely you are old enough to remember carbon copies. You'd put the letterhead, carbon paper, and a sheet of blank paper (perhaps onionskin because it's cheap and lightweight) together in the typewriter. Add more carbon paper and blank sheets if there are multiple Verteilers as in this case. The letterhead would be sent to the recipient, probably folded in an envelope; one copy would go in the sender's file, and other copies to the remaining recipients. This looks like the file copy: not on letterhead, a bit wrinkled as onionskin tends to do, not folded, and punched to go in a binder. I don't find it fishy or strange at all.

If it is a file copy, then it has a signature on it for some reason.

The lettering looks darker than what would be generated by a carbon.

And it has at still has the same problems with authenticity, as you cannot verify a sheet of paper without a letterhead to prove that it wasn't created post-war.

The other point is that this document is describing the "maximum ability" of the cremation facilities. It is like saying that since my car has a "maximum speed" of 120 miles per hour, then wherever I go in my car, I should be able get to every destination at the rate of 2 miles every minute. No facility is operated at maximum capacity 24/7/365. So if you multiply these daily numbers, it still does not prove a total of 6 million.

From what I understand, it takes 2 hours to cremate a body. In the 4 years from 1941 to 1945, there are 35,040 hours. To process 6 million, this will tell you the number of cremation facilities needed. We also need to consider downtime, repair, cool down time and how much coal would be needed. There is something wrong with these numbers.

Whatever happened in the past is a tragedy, but the present is more important. The Holocaust is the justification used for the creation of a Zionist state, which is based on race and that puts people in camps "today", and that is murdering people in Gaza as we speak.

That is why I question it. I hate war. And to use the murder of people 80 years ago as a pretext to continue to murder people today, it just has to stop.

I also question it because it cannot be questioned. That no one can discuss this politely without having their reputation ruined is insane.

Thanks for listening.

[Bootstrap]

No one doubts what you are saying, but your statements are like lighting a match around gasoline. Once emotion is injected to this discussion, there can be no discussion.

John, this was not directed to me, but I think you are injecting a lot of emotion into this conversation yourself. All conspiracy theories do that.

This has been studied in depth by a LOT of people. They all come up with ranges. Was it 6 million? 5.1 million? 6.2 million? If you add in all the POWs, Polish civilians, Gypsies, does it double the number?

Of course, holocaust deniers and holocaust minimalists come up with much lower numbers. Some say it did not happen at all.

[Bootstrap]

Whatever happened in the past is a tragedy, but the present is more important. The Holocaust is the justification used for the creation of a Zionist state, which is based on race and that puts people in camps "today", and that is murdering people in Gaza as we speak.

That is why I question it. I hate war. And to use the murder of people 80 years ago as a pretext to continue to murder people today, it just has to stop.

The Holocaust is real, though. It happened.

Murdering Palestinians is the wrong lesson to learn from the Holocaust. But we don't learn from history by erasing it. And this gets emotional precisely because there are Holocaust deniers and minimizers. And because they tend to take deflect conversations about the Holocaust from the horror of what happened to endless debates.

Perhaps we can say the Holocaust was horrible and what happened in Gaza was also horrible? Both can be true at the same time.

[ohio jones]

If it is a file copy, then it has a signature on it for some reason.

I'm seeing handwritten notations to the list of recipients, but no signature.

[R7ehr]

I fail to see what exactly the “question” is.

If the question is, in the face of ridiculous amounts of evidence and proof, “Did the Holocaust happen?”, then I think it is fair to just cut through the subterfuge and assume you are in fact, denying the Holocaust, are a Holocaust denier, and are simply hiding behind rhetorical questions. You are being willfully ignorant.

If the question is how many people died and who were those people, again, there is vast amounts of information on who they were. Regarding the exact number - is there anyone on earth who is laboring under the allusion that the exact number is even knowable? All we have is varying numbers, ranges. I don’t lose any sleep over not knowing the precise, exact number. What does it matter if the exact number is at the low end or the high end? What difference does it possibly make in terms of learning from history or understanding the tragedy?

[JohnH]

I fail to see what exactly the “question” is.

If the question is, in the face of ridiculous amounts of evidence and proof, “Did the Holocaust happen?”, then I think it is fair to just cut through the subterfuge and assume you are in fact, denying the Holocaust, are a Holocaust denier, and are simply hiding behind rhetorical questions. You are being willfully ignorant.

Note that JohnHurt questions absolutely anything and everything. I don't think he's a "Holocaust denier".

[Szdfan]

I fail to see what exactly the “question” is.

If the question is, in the face of ridiculous amounts of evidence and proof, “Did the Holocaust happen?”, then I think it is fair to just cut through the subterfuge and assume you are in fact, denying the Holocaust, are a Holocaust denier, and are simply hiding behind rhetorical questions. You are being willfully ignorant.

If the question is how many people died and who were those people, again, there is vast amounts of information on who they were. Regarding the exact number - is there anyone on earth who is laboring under the allusion that the exact number is even knowable? All we have is varying numbers, ranges. I don’t lose any sleep over not knowing the precise, exact number. What does it matter if the exact number is at the low end or the high end? What difference does it possibly make in terms of learning from history or understanding the tragedy?

Because of the very German way that the Nazis kept records, we have more information than for most genocides about how many Jews and others were murdered during the Holocaust. Even then, it's impossible to get a definite, exact number. We can only get ranges.

[barnhart]

I can't believe that in this day and age we are even having conversations about the veracity of the Holocaust.

I have sat around my grandmother's table with holocaust survivors and seen the numbers tattooed on their forearms and listened to their stories of making bread with sawdust.

Please do not participate in this conversation.

No one doubts what you are saying, but your statements are like lighting a match around gasoline. Once emotion is injected to this discussion, there can be no discussion.

I am interested in a rational explanation of how the 6,000,000 number was counted, and other problems with the narrative. I don't doubt that people died in these camps.

If I am to be painted as an "anti-Semite" for asking questions, then I won't participate in this discussion.

Please only quote things I actually said.
-Thank you

[Nomad]

Surely you are old enough to remember carbon copies. You'd put the letterhead, carbon paper, and a sheet of blank paper (perhaps onionskin because it's cheap and lightweight) together in the typewriter. Add more carbon paper and blank sheets if there are multiple Verteilers as in this case. The letterhead would be sent to the recipient, probably folded in an envelope; one copy would go in the sender's file, and other copies to the remaining recipients. This looks like the file copy: not on letterhead, a bit wrinkled as onionskin tends to do, not folded, and punched to go in a binder. I don't find it fishy or strange at all.

If it is a file copy, then it has a signature on it for some reason.

The lettering looks darker than what would be generated by a carbon.

And it has at still has the same problems with authenticity, as you cannot verify a sheet of paper without a letterhead to prove that it wasn't created post-war.

The other point is that this document is describing the "maximum ability" of the cremation facilities. It is like saying that since my car has a "maximum speed" of 120 miles per hour, then wherever I go in my car, I should be able get to every destination at the rate of 2 miles every minute. No facility is operated at maximum capacity 24/7/365. So if you multiply these daily numbers, it still does not prove a total of 6 million.

From what I understand, it takes 2 hours to cremate a body. In the 4 years from 1941 to 1945, there are 35,040 hours. To process 6 million, this will tell you the number of cremation facilities needed. We also need to consider downtime, repair, cool down time and how much coal would be needed. There is something wrong with these numbers.

Whatever happened in the past is a tragedy, but the present is more important. The Holocaust is the justification used for the creation of a Zionist state, which is based on race and that puts people in camps "today", and that is murdering people in Gaza as we speak.

That is why I question it. I hate war. And to use the murder of people 80 years ago as a pretext to continue to murder people today, it just has to stop.

I also question it because it cannot be questioned. That no one can discuss this politely without having their reputation ruined is insane.

Thanks for listening.

Do you question the estimated deaths of massacres pertaining to all people groups throughout history? Or is it just the Jewish one's you've dedicated so much time to questioning...

[Nomad]

I'm just curious what the point of this is? If I were to argue that the massacre at Deir Yassin by Zionist militias actually killed approximately 25 people rather than the projected range of 100 to 140...it STILL doesn't justify them for what they did. A massacre is a massacre regardless of the number.

If the whole point of this is some Jewish world domination conspiracy theory, then you can join the long list of other conspiracies I've heard against the Jewish people by right-winged individuals. I've heard all kinds of anti-Jewish conspiracies...even the Flat-earthers find a way to sneak it in.

Its not that I think the Jewish people are so amazing. Their not...they sin just like the rest of humanity. They are power hungry just like the rest of humanity. It just seems some people are obsessed with painting them as being "the problem" and they would be perfectly satisfied if they got pushed right off the map. If I heard someone say that Arabs were involved in some cabal ment for world domination because of all the Saudi wealth and Arab control of the oil fields...and then developed some elaborate scheme questioning the massacres of ISIS as some ploy to advance Arab sympathy...I would call it bogus as well. So its not just because you are questioning the Jewish people...I would say the same about any conspiracy involving other ethnic groups as well.