The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[HondurasKeiser]

We forget our history. I would argue that persecution of Mennonites and Catholics and other sects who weren't part of the dominant Christian mainstream was FAR more severe in previous generations than today. I expect we both have have ancestors who were brutalized for their pacifist stands during WW1 and to a lesser extend during WW2. And perhaps the Civil War, although those stories are fading from memory. None of that would happen today.

Are you talking about US history in reference to the persecution of Mennonites by the dominant Christian mainstream? If so, what are your sources? I thought the early Mennonites left the old world for the new world because of persecution. When there was opposition to pacifism during the wars, did that opposition come from the dominant Christian mainstream or was it from government?

There was definitely some during WWI, I think perhaps JBG has mentioned the persecution the Shenandoah Valley Mennonites faced during the Civil War and the eminent John Ruth burst onto the Mennonite history scene with his 1976 "'Twas Seeding Time" which was an account of the ways in which Franconia and Lancaster Mennonites found it increasingly difficult and costly to maintain their nonresistance during the Revolution.

[RZehr]

When the vast majority in this country shared a common Christian culture, Christians were not sued for rejecting gay cakes. Nor were their businesses boycotted because of their Christian beliefs. Nor were they under threat of being “cancelled” for “hate” speech.
These are things that we can expect to see more of as the country becomes less “Christian” culturally. And there will become a time when it is not accepted to preach truth. Maybe within the four walls of a church building will be the last refuge of preaching freely, but to preach and broadcast truth, whether on radio, television or internet will become a high risk endeavor with real consequences.
Sure, we can preach 100% truth now. But there will become 1% then 2% etc of topics that will slowly become extremely risky to speak truth on.
You think there’s no consequences for speaking against homosexuality in SanFran? You think you could climb the social ladder in Waco by speaking out against the military?

We forget our history. I would argue that persecution of Mennonites and Catholics and other sects who weren't part of the dominant Christian mainstream was FAR more severe in previous generations than today. I expect we both have have ancestors who were brutalized for their pacifist stands during WW1 and to a lesser extend during WW2. And perhaps the Civil War, although those stories are fading from memory. None of that would happen today.

Anti-Catholic sentiment was absolutely virulent in the 19th Century. The main reason why Catholics built such a large network of religious schools and universities in this country was that they were discriminated against in the public schools and universities run by mainstream protestants. The Ku Klux Klan wasn't just an anti-black organization. It was just as anti-Catholic and terrorized Catholic families and institutions in many southern towns.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... cs-213177/

Some evangelical wedding cake baker who gets bad yelp reviews for refusing to sell to gay couples is not remotely in the same league as the discrimination and hatred that previous generations of Christians faced in the US who were not part of the dominant white protestant majority.

As for your examples? Taking a pacifist stand from a Christian perspective would be utterly uncontroversial in Waco. There are peace churches there including Mennonites and Quakers and various other groups with a pacifist perspective. What would ruin one's social and professional standing would be to take an overtly secular or atheist stand in public.

And honestly there are anti-gay preachers all the time in San Francisco. No one pays them any attention. I was just there last summer with my family visiting colleges and getting passports renewed at the Chilean Consulate in downtown San Francisco. Our hotel was a block from Union Square and there were anti-gay preachers out preaching away in the center of Union Square, which is the center of the city and frankly no one was paying any attention. But start a POLITICAL campaign to repeal gay marriage in San Francisco and you will get instant and furious pushback. Guaranteed. Speak and preach whatever you want in a big city and frankly no one cares. It is a cacophony of voices of every kind. But organize a political campaign to strip away the rights of others and you will generate furious and intense political opposition. Its the politics not the religion that inspires opposition.

Should a Christian public school teacher in the PNW, tell his students that homosexuality is sinful, what would the repercussions be? How would it be different 50 years ago? And why do you suppose that difference came about?

Sure, Mormons were reviled as well. The difference coming is that “Christianity” is declining. Let’s not pretend that will have no implications for Christians. It will. And that is not even controversial, or really debatable.

[Ken]

Should a Christian public school teacher in the PNW, tell his students that homosexuality is sinful, what would the repercussions be? How would it be different 50 years ago? And why do you suppose that difference came about?

Sure, Mormons were reviled as well. The difference coming is that “Christianity” is declining. Let’s not pretend that will have no implications for Christians. It will. And that is not even controversial, or really debatable.

Really? that is your question?

Should a Christian public school teacher tell her students who's parents and older siblings serve in the military that they are sinning against God's will by wearing uniforms and taking up arms?

Should a Christian public school teacher tell his wealthy students that their families are sinning by gathering up worldly treasures?

Should a Christian public school teacher advocate for the stoning of students who blaspheme or take the Lord's name in vain as Moses commanded? (Leviticus 24.11-23)

We have a lot of Mormons here in the west who work in the public schools. Should Mormon teachers teach their students Mormonism such as the belief that the Trinity consists not of three persons in one God but rather of three distinct gods. and that there are potentially many thousands of gods besides these?

Should Muslim public school teachers (yes there are many) teach their students that they must follow the five tenants of Islam: Shahadah, Salah, Zakat, Sawm, and Hajj in order to reach paradise?

Should Jewish public school teachers tell their students that Jesus was a false prophet?

As for how things would have been different 50 years ago? The answer is not at all. The Supreme Court ruled more than 50 years ago that both religious instruction and mandatory school prayer was an unconstitutional violation of the separation of church and state.

As for the repercussions if a public school teacher did that today? If it came to the attention of the school administration because a parent or student complained, then they would likely be called into a meeting with their supervisor who would explain the legal prohibitions on prothletising in school and be asked to stop. If the teacher refused he/she would probably either be let go for insubordination or reassigned to non-teaching duties of some sort pending further action depending on what kind of contract was in place.

And honestly, if American Christianity can only survive if it is in the majority and able to wield the power of the state to enforce it's doctrine then it isn't much of a religion, and frankly isn't very Christian.

[RZehr]

You are neatly sidestepping the point. The conversation isn’t about what a teacher should or should say, is it?
The real fact is that 50 years ago, it would have been a non factor. And today that teacher would probably be fired, and at minimum, disciplined and be marked.

Why do you think it’s so different today? That is really the question, right? Not the part about what a teacher should and shouldn’t say.

[Ken]

We forget our history. I would argue that persecution of Mennonites and Catholics and other sects who weren't part of the dominant Christian mainstream was FAR more severe in previous generations than today. I expect we both have have ancestors who were brutalized for their pacifist stands during WW1 and to a lesser extend during WW2. And perhaps the Civil War, although those stories are fading from memory. None of that would happen today.

Are you talking about US history in reference to the persecution of Mennonites by the dominant Christian mainstream? If so, what are your sources? I thought the early Mennonites left the old world for the new world because of persecution. When there was opposition to pacifism during the wars, did that opposition come from the dominant Christian mainstream or was it from government?

What are my sources? I have great uncles who were beaten and brutalized for refusing military induction in 1917. That's how they did it. Conscientious objectors were beaten and brutalized by the military in order to test the strength of their faith as a matter of policy. You want better sources? Here are a few:

The Plain Mennonite Face of the World War One Conscientious Objector: https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/181 ... 75-201.pdf

Kansas Mennonites during World War One: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/214531076.pdf

Remembering muted voices: WWI conscientious objectors: https://anabaptistworld.org/remembering ... objectors/

[Soloist]

Should a Christian public school teacher in the PNW, tell his students that homosexuality is sinful, what would the repercussions be? How would it be different 50 years ago? And why do you suppose that difference came about?

Sure, Mormons were reviled as well. The difference coming is that “Christianity” is declining. Let’s not pretend that will have no implications for Christians. It will. And that is not even controversial, or really debatable.

As for how things would have been different 50 years ago? The answer is not at all. The Supreme Court ruled more than 50 years ago that both religious instruction and mandatory school prayer was an unconstitutional violation of the separation of church and state.

As for the repercussions if a public school teacher did that today? If it came to the attention of the school administration because a parent or student complained, then they would likely be called into a meeting with their supervisor who would explain the legal prohibitions on prothletising in school and be asked to stop. If the teacher refused he/she would probably either be let go for insubordination or reassigned to non-teaching duties of some sort pending further action depending on what kind of contract was in place.

And honestly, if American Christianity can only survive if it is in the majority and able to wield the power of the state to enforce it's doctrine then it isn't much of a religion, and frankly isn't very Christian.

I have no problem with the public school teacher aspect. However, this idea keeps getting challenged in the private school sector where as 50 years ago this would not have been an issue. You read now about Catholic schools facing challenges by homosexual ideology and that is only the tip of the ice berg. The issues will creep steadily into all schools and even to some degree churches. Already anything marriage related that the CM's do is in great risk of lawsuit over refusal to participate in homosexual union/marriage and there has been advice given to leave these fields entirely. There is a variety of responses that have come from that... Mostly though the cake baking business for weddings has gone underground for anyone wanting to make a wedding cake for business. Photography is the same. Generally to survive and avoid lawsuits, you need to be off grid so to speak and be very selective of your clients. I know someone who tiptoes around the legal requirements for rentals in this fashion but its risky and will eventually be untenable.

Our culture has changed and I think its been progressively marching away from "christian" for many years and we are seeing the fruit of unions of Christians with the state to try to slow this. The swing is always the other direction after the "Christian" leader gets removed and generally whatever was done gets undone quickly.

[RZehr]

Ken- All your historical anecdotes are really strengthening what I’m saying. Minorities are easily mistreated. You, seemingly as an ally of the left, should be aware that they make a really nice amount of their living by pushing the “unequal and unfair” treatment of minorities in this country. It’s not imaginary to them.

And you bring up cases in the past of Christian minorities being mistreated. Well, what do you expect to happen when Christianity becomes a minority? That somehow it will be the exception to the rule, and that a culture that has spent a generation fighting against Christian values and principles, suddenly pivots to protect the thing they hate? The religion that used politics to outlaw what they fight to legalize? What?

[Ken]

You are neatly sidestepping the point. The conversation isn’t about what a teacher should or should say, is it?
The real fact is that 50 years ago, it would have been a non factor. And today that teacher would probably be fired, and at minimum, disciplined and be marked.

Why do you think it’s so different today? That is really the question, right? Not the part about what a teacher should and shouldn’t say.

You are right that a teacher speaking out against homosexuality 50 years ago would have been noncontroversial. Society has evolved in its views in that respect.

Nevertheless the teaching of religious doctrine in the public schools has always been forbidden under the First Amendment going back much more than 50 years. And teachers would indeed have been fired for doing so, 50 years ago or 100 years ago, especially if they strayed from the dominant mainstream protestant ethos. Catholic teachers who taught their protestant students the Catholic Catechism, or how to Pray the Rosary, or the veneration of saints would likely have been fired or disciplined. Of that you can be certain. Which is exactly why the Catholic Church built such a network of parochial schools across the country in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So they would be free to do those things.

[Ken]

Ken- All your historical anecdotes are really strengthening what I’m saying. Minorities are easily mistreated. You, seemingly as an ally of the left, should be aware that they make a really nice amount of their living by pushing the “unequal and unfair” treatment of minorities in this country. It’s not imaginary to them.

And you bring up cases in the past of Christian minorities being mistreated. Well, what do you expect to happen when Christianity becomes a minority? That somehow it will be the exception to the rule, and that a culture that has spent a generation fighting against Christian values and principles, suddenly pivots to protect the thing they hate? The religion that used politics to outlaw what they fight to legalize? What?

I expect the First Amendment and our longstanding legal principles of freedom of religion to protect Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists and Atheists and Agnostics just as it has always done (although sometimes imperfectly) regardless of whether or not Christianity is in the majority or minority.

In any event, your term "Christian Values" is an incredibly broad and diverse term. Which Christian values are you most concerned with? Those related to poverty and helping the poor? Those related to refugees and strangers in our midst? Those related to peace and nonviolence? Those related to stewardship and protection of God's creation? Those related to marriage and divorce?

[Ken]

Should a Christian public school teacher in the PNW, tell his students that homosexuality is sinful, what would the repercussions be? How would it be different 50 years ago? And why do you suppose that difference came about?

Sure, Mormons were reviled as well. The difference coming is that “Christianity” is declining. Let’s not pretend that will have no implications for Christians. It will. And that is not even controversial, or really debatable.

As for how things would have been different 50 years ago? The answer is not at all. The Supreme Court ruled more than 50 years ago that both religious instruction and mandatory school prayer was an unconstitutional violation of the separation of church and state.

As for the repercussions if a public school teacher did that today? If it came to the attention of the school administration because a parent or student complained, then they would likely be called into a meeting with their supervisor who would explain the legal prohibitions on prothletising in school and be asked to stop. If the teacher refused he/she would probably either be let go for insubordination or reassigned to non-teaching duties of some sort pending further action depending on what kind of contract was in place.

And honestly, if American Christianity can only survive if it is in the majority and able to wield the power of the state to enforce it's doctrine then it isn't much of a religion, and frankly isn't very Christian.

I have no problem with the public school teacher aspect. However, this idea keeps getting challenged in the private school sector where as 50 years ago this would not have been an issue. You read now about Catholic schools facing challenges by homosexual ideology and that is only the tip of the ice berg. The issues will creep steadily into all schools and even to some degree churches. Already anything marriage related that the CM's do is in great risk of lawsuit over refusal to participate in homosexual union/marriage and there has been advice given to leave these fields entirely. There is a variety of responses that have come from that... Mostly though the cake baking business for weddings has gone underground for anyone wanting to make a wedding cake for business. Photography is the same. Generally to survive and avoid lawsuits, you need to be off grid so to speak and be very selective of your clients. I know someone who tiptoes around the legal requirements for rentals in this fashion but its risky and will eventually be untenable.

Our culture has changed and I think its been progressively marching away from "christian" for many years and we are seeing the fruit of unions of Christians with the state to try to slow this. The swing is always the other direction after the "Christian" leader gets removed and generally whatever was done gets undone quickly.

Do CM wedding venues and wedding cake bakers have similar moral objections to renting their venues and baking cakes for the second marriages of divorced heterosexual couples? I'm not part of that world so I'm honestly curious. The biblical teaching about that is equally clear.

I honestly think that a little tolerance and good will on both sides would go a long way toward resolving most of these issues.