400 Years of African Slavery in America

[silentreader]

So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

The gubmint, of course!

The debt ceiling currently at $22T needs raised to $28M soon, or else the U.S. government has to stop paying its debts. One wonders how many more trillions of debt those calling for "reparations" think would make things equitable.

M=T

[Ken]

I do think we should work to eliminate remaining vestiges of slavery and segregation in our society and seek to create a more equitable society. That would be accomplishment enough.

So far, attempts to do this have made a less-equitable society. The gap between the rich and the poor is much higher than it used to be, and America is actually more segregated than it used to be. In addition to segregating into many different ethnic groups (which is exacerbated by the mass waves of immigration into America), we now have stark segregation between rich and poor.

In some ways yes, in other ways not. We have made a lot of progress but there is still a lot more to be done. Progress is always hard. You would do what? Throw up your hands and give up?

[Sudsy]

So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

I don't think monetary reparations should be paid to individuals. I think that is pretty much a non-starter for a lot of reasons.

I do think we should work to eliminate remaining vestiges of slavery and segregation in our society and seek to create a more equitable society. That would be accomplishment enough.

Another approach might be to let the world (governments, etc) go about doing what they do and focus on bringing whosoever will to become part of the Kingdom of God. Nothing they do is of eternal value if people remain outside the Kingdom. Our mission here as Christ followers is not to join with unbelievers in their ways to make life more equitable for all. Jesus said the poor you will always have with you. He also taught how a believer can live within any world slavery system. Our mission is to introduce and show them a Kingdom way of life that begins with first becoming a citizen of that Kingdom.

The Kingdom life is a life of slavery. We went from a slavery to sin to a life of slavery to Jesus Christ. - Romans 6. A big problem today is wanting Jesus as Saviour but not as Lord. This is the biggest issue, imo, regarding slavery that should be our concern.

Anyway, that's my opinion about were the focus should be when talking about slavery.

[HondurasKeiser]

Interesting topic Dan, given that the punditry has spent the last week debating the efficacy of the NYT's "1619 Project". Consonantly, I read an interesting little exhortation to sanity and humility from Dr. Phil Jenkins at Baylor today and thought it fit well with the discussion in this thread.

One may protest that a white European Christian civilization that allowed slavery was by its nature so thoroughly tainted that it represented a kind of cancer on the earth, which needs to be purged from history. But we would then need to ask what point of reference we are using to condemn that culture, and whom we might celebrate in its place. Historically, where do we find cultures that rejected and condemned slavery as an institution, and which posed stern moral objections to the fact of slavery? Such did exist, notably in much of Christian medieval Europe. But where else? Not, of course, in the Classical world; nor in the world of Islam until very modern times; nor in many modern African communities; nor in Persian or Indian or Chinese history; nor among Native Americans, Aztecs, or Mayans. Not only were these slave societies, but the slavery principle remained uncontested.

"Look at them, they're worse than us...?" Using the smokescreen argument of someone (from Baylor, no less) here hardly seems the thing to do.

What’s the matter with Baylor?

[Ken]

Interesting topic Dan, given that the punditry has spent the last week debating the efficacy of the NYT's "1619 Project". Consonantly, I read an interesting little exhortation to sanity and humility from Dr. Phil Jenkins at Baylor today and thought it fit well with the discussion in this thread.

"Look at them, they're worse than us...?" Using the smokescreen argument of someone (from Baylor, no less) here hardly seems the thing to do.

What’s the matter with Baylor?

I don't know. Perhaps it is that the denomination that runs Baylor was explicitly founded in support of slavery and to provide a safe refuge for slaveowners? That the university administration virulently supported the Confederate cause and encouraged faculty and students to join the fight for slavery and against abolition? Or perhaps that Baylor operated as a segregated whites-only university until 1963, a full 100 years after the end of the Civil War? Perhaps it is rather unseemly for Baylor to deflect and point to say the Aztecs and say "look at them...they were worse than us"

[Neto]

So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

The gubmint, of course!

OK. Take the case in the BBC article I linked to. The woman who was being interviewed was British. Her grandfather had moved there from Jamaica, I think it was. I'm guessing that it was a British colony at the time that her 7th generation back ancestor was sold into slavery there. So why should the Jamaican government pay, when they were not in control of their own affairs at that time? I think this is relevant to the point that Josh has been making. Yes, the US is still the same country in the literal sense, but going back farther, should there be a difference if one's ancestors were put into slavery while the US was still a British colony? (The United States did not exist 400 years ago.) Why or why not? I know that you are not advocating for the government to pay reparations - that the government is just the "Sugar Daddy" that people hold their hand out to. But I think that this relates to what Josh is saying - that the people today (those who are not espousing ethnic prejudice) are not indebted to people they have never oppressed. And there are lots of people here now whose ancestors were in some other place, also being oppressed, at the time this oppression via slavery was taking place here. (I could go on - because there were also lots of "whites" who were here in the States when this was going on, and they never took part in it, nor profited from it. If they had, they would not have been "poor white trash".)

If the subject is really about ethnic prejudice NOW, then that's what should be dealt with, and it doesn't matter how it came about that they are now an ethnic minority in some country other than their ancestral home. There are people experiencing ethnic prejudice whose ancestors were never sold into slavery in known history.

I know I'm posting in a political topic. But I got started in this out of curiosity, and I would not advocate any solution of a political nature. I do maintain that the "what should be done about it" needs to be on the personal, face to face level, and I would confine my thoughts to what Christians should do about it - I have no part in any government.

[Joy]

While we're on the topic of making things right in our United States history, has anything been done to right the wrong of our country's insurrection against England, and the ensuing war which killed many thousands of lives? Has there ever even been a national confession of sin regarding it?

[Josh]

While we're on the topic of making things right in our United States history, has anything been done to right the wrong of our country's insurrection against England, and the ensuing war which killed many thousands of lives? Has there ever even been a national confession of sin regarding it?

Perhaps an appropriate venue would these be 1/6 hearings accusing Americans of “insurrection” for attending a protest.

[Josh]

"Look at them, they're worse than us...?" Using the smokescreen argument of someone (from Baylor, no less) here hardly seems the thing to do.

What’s the matter with Baylor?

I don't know. Perhaps it is that the denomination that runs Baylor was explicitly founded in support of slavery and to provide a safe refuge for slaveowners? That the university administration virulently supported the Confederate cause and encouraged faculty and students to join the fight for slavery and against abolition? Or perhaps that Baylor operated as a segregated whites-only university until 1963, a full 100 years after the end of the Civil War? Perhaps it is rather unseemly for Baylor to deflect and point to say the Aztecs and say "look at them...they were worse than us"

By that standard, we should exclude anything the Democratic Party or Democrats have to say, given their past enthusiastic support of segregation.

[Only an Anz]

So, a question, solely from the point of view of curiosity. For those who believe that additional reparations should be paid, who should pay? (All "White People"? Descendants of former slave owners? Companies which engaged directly in the slave trade? Descendants who have inherited property from these companies? The governments of nations which had legal slavery? All rich people over a certain "financial worth"? What about the descendants of those who sold the person for the first time?) I'm just curious how those who advocate for this envision the implementation of it.

While I do know that my family owned slaves, I don't have an answer for this. As it stands, the person who I am friends with who's my relative due to slavery is more well-off than I am. It is certainly something to think about.