U.S. Children of Internment

[temporal1]

i wrote:
.. Add to that, the numbers of German descent LEGAL CITIZENS, their acceptance+importance in the U.S., then, to be struck down so thoroughly. This represents significant change in U.S. history-culture that continues today - ignored. ..

i’m not sure this is a bad thing. that life happens, adjustments are made, life goes on.

what we have today is organized political blocs+cults t that have 1 purpose: to make sure there is no moving on.
these blocs+cults want to enshrine the wrongs, craft laws around them, forever access the public treasury - to ensure there is no moving on, and, when possible, to create specially identified super citizens.

i appreciate history for history’s sake. it should be balanced.

when it’s not balanced, there are reasons - esp with goals of lifting one group above others.
there should be no pretense that any identified group is more or less likely to be guilty of this than any other.

that is pure fantasy.

[JohnHurt]

i’m bothered that history is not reflected in balance, that U.S. citizens of other national origin were treated similarly,
but this fact is overall ignored.

Until Kurt Vonnegut wrote "Slaughterhouse Five", the murder of hundreds of thousands of German civilians through the unnecessary fire bombing of Dresden was ignored.

And though the history books consider Sherman's "March to the Sea" as necessary, where he burned a 60 mile wide path across the South of every house and farm to the ground - even the cities of Atlanta and Columbia SC - all of the civilians lost their homes and a famine was caused, it is still a war crime against humanity that has been covered up in the history books

What happened to my ancestors in the camps of Johnson Island and Fort Douglas was unnecessary, and the starvation of the men who died there under the "Union" have been covered up.

The Rhine Meadows camps - where the German POWs were left outdoors behind barbed wire with not enough food or water, and were converted to "Disarmed Enemy Combatants" so the Red Cross could not minister to them or give them food under the Geneva Convention - this was a great crime against humanity. A lot of them died, does it really matter how many? That is where any discussion of this leads.

Even the two Hutterite boys that were killed because they would not fight in WWI, this is a crime by our government.

I finally figured out that the reason we think we are the "Good Guys" is that we win the wars, and write the history books. The South lost the "War of Northern Aggression" and so it is taught that the civil war was fought by the "evil" South over slavery, and not tariffs.

The Japanese used water torture on American prisoners, and were tried, convicted and executed after WWII for this atrocity. Their arguments as to why they had to use these techniques for "national security reasons" were quoted, almost verbatim, at the trial of the officers under Dick Cheney as the reason why they had to waterboard prisoners at Guantanamo. They were acquitted, of course.

There is not a lot of difference between any government, it only matters who won the war.

We really need to keep our eyes open when dealing with the government of men. Christ said to avoid their courts of law at any cost (Mt 5:25-26), and if their money has their image on it, give it back to them. Mt 22:21

And stay out of their "camps", as that is where many bad things happen.

Here is what Wikipedia says about "Democide", or the killing of civilians by government:

Democide is a concept proposed by U.S. political scientist Rudolph Rummel to describe "the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command."[1][2] According to Rummel, this definition covers a wide range of deaths, including forced labor and concentration camp victims; killings by unofficial private groups; extrajudicial summary killings; and mass deaths due to governmental acts of criminal omission and neglect such as in deliberate famines as well as killings by de facto governments, i.e. civil war killings.[1][2] This definition covers any murder of any number of persons by any government.[1][2]

Rummel created the term democide as an extended concept to include forms of government murder not covered by the term genocide. According to Rummel, democide surpassed war as the leading cause of non-natural death in the 20th century.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

If you think about it, the USA probably killed more Vietnamese with Agent Orange, than with bullets. This chemical has destroyed the lives of many of the US servicemen that were even slightly exposed to it - can you imagine what it has done to the Vietnamese people where it was sprayed on their fields and rice patties? It kills plants, and was supposedly sprayed so that the Viet Cong would not have a tree to hide behind. That is a ridiculous reason only for the gullible.

I think governments are "Murder Incorporated". We should analyze their actions, and not worry about what they say.

At least the German and Japanese internees mostly survived the war. They were lucky "this time", I suppose.

Thank you for your posts, I enjoy reading them.

John

[Josh]

There was as much social shaming and push to buy war bonds and submit to the draft in World War I and II, as there is a push to get vaccinated now.

Of course, this push existed both in America and also on the other side in Germany, Japan, Romania and so forth. What is notable is how absolutely confident mainstream society was that they were doing the “right thing”.

[temporal1]

There was as much social shaming and push to buy war bonds and submit to the draft in World War I and II, as there is a push to get vaccinated now.

Of course, this push existed both in America and also on the other side in Germany, Japan, Romania and so forth.
What is notable is how absolutely confident mainstream society was that they were doing the “right thing”.

Governments have their own agenda, that’s true.
In the U.S., in the past, there has been general support from bipartisan Congress in times of emergencies, and war.
One recent, but now almost forgotten event was post 9-11 Bush/Iraq, and formation of Homeland Security.

GovernmentS are known to do these things. And they sell them as “necessary and right.” Typically, as tho there are no valid alternatives. Everything’s a “have to.”

The “have to” revolves directly around those who intend to gain power+wealth, altho there is a shortage of honesty about it.

At this moment, the “have to” is about vaccines. Fortunes are being made. None of these things are pro bono.

Having said that ^^^
i’m not sure who gained from putting legal U.S. citizens (of various specified descent) in internment camps, and ending bilingual education. but it was done with bipartisan Congress.

today, it seems bipartisan Congress is ok with pretending it was only Japanese descent citizens that were targeted.
i’m not sure why. (i presume organized political blocs/lobbies focused on that one group, to the exclusion of others.)

“The squeaky wheel gets the oil.”

[temporal1]

From another topic:

Ontario, Canada ^^

For most of my life, pastors, priests, rabbis, have been reliable respected resources for police and courts, helping in many cases and situations, in countries all over the world.

Even before this pandemic, changes were happening, putting Christians at disadvantage in various rulings.
The pandemic is magnifying the changes.

After writing, i thought this may be similar to what happened to German Americans after the world wars?
Without the drama of the world wars? Not yet.

That is, Christians once respected and valued in many cultures, now identified as “less than” (if not enemy aliens).

Christianity is far greater than German ancestry! But, the pattern? ..

[temporal1]

Today ..
i noticed my granddaughter (in remote school) learning about Japanese-Americans in internment camps.
i was able to share with her and her mother about German descent and Italian descent and some others experiencing the same.

Possibly German-Americans lost more than the others, having more to lose from the start (of the World Wars).
But this is not discussed. (That is, no organized political blocs pushing this defined agenda.)

My daughter was surprised to learn of this.

i suppose i should mention (repeat) -
in my view, THE BEST of the U.S. is the MAJORITY of politically UNorganized citizens, living and working, contributing, without “hitching up” to organized political blocs+cults. ordinary citizens, one citizen/one vote (or not). not ganging up with or joining forces with others for power and profit.

i hope the free majority will not be lost in all the current zeal to force sides on (every little matter).

i want to discuss the unnoticed. in balanced history. for the sake of history.

i don’t want to see the unnoticed organize to force themselves as distinct+deserving of special notice/treatment.
i think this now popular legal path needs to be abandoned. it’s an example of good intentions gone wrong.

[Szdfan]

Today ..
i noticed my granddaughter (in remote school) learning about Japanese-Americans in internment camps.
i was able to share with her and her mother about German descent and Italian descent and some others experiencing the same.

Possibly German-Americans lost more than the others, having more to lose from the start (of the World Wars).
But this is not discussed. (That is, no organized political blocs pushing this defined agenda.)

My daughter was surprised to learn of this.

i suppose i should mention (repeat) -
in my view, THE BEST of the U.S. is the MAJORITY of politically UNorganized citizens, living and working, contributing, without “hitching up” to organized political blocs+cults. ordinary citizens, one citizen/one vote (or not). not ganging up with or joining forces with others for power and profit.

i hope the free majority will not be lost in all the current zeal to force sides on (every little matter).

i want to discuss the unnoticed. in balanced history. for the sake of history.

i don’t want to see the unnoticed organize to force themselves as distinct+deserving of special notice/treatment.
i think this now popular legal path needs to be abandoned. it’s an example of good intentions gone wrong.

For the sake of balanced history, I think it's important to note that the US detained at least 11,000 ethnic Germans during WWII, mostly German citizens. This amount was a small sliver compared to the amount of Germans and ethnic Germans living in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmen ... _Americans

By the time of WWII, the United States had a large population of ethnic Germans. Among residents of the United States in 1940, more than 1.2 million persons had been born in Germany, 5 million had two native-German parents, and 6 million had one native-German parent. Many more had distant German ancestry.

In regards to Italians, the US only considered Italian immigrants who had not become naturalized citizens. Out of the millions of ethnic Italians living in the US, this designation only included 695,000 immigrants in 1942. Of these, the US government detained 1,881. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmen ... _Americans

At the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, there were 127,000 ethnic Japanese living in the continental US (not including Hawaii). 112,000 of these ethnic Japanese were living on the West Coast. The US government interned 120,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmen ... _Americans

I certainly believe that the stories of German and Italian detainees should be told, but it's also true that the amount of Germans and Italians detained during the war is nowhere near proportional to the amount of Japanese that were detained. Using German and Italian detainees to erase or downplay the detention of the Japanese is not balanced history.

[temporal1]

.. I certainly believe that the stories of German and Italian detainees should be told, but it's also true that the amount of Germans and Italians detained during the war is nowhere near proportional to the amount of Japanese that were detained.
Using German and Italian detainees to erase or downplay the detention of the Japanese is not balanced history.

That’s not what this thread is about, so you’re good, right?

Regardless of numbers+statistics, my interest is in how these others are flat-out ignored, AND, also, i’m thinking, considering the great contribution and influence of German immigrants in U.S. history, their “fall from grace” was greater-than others - even Japanese. Bilingual public schools are an indicator.

Imagine if today, the U.S. were suddenly stripped of bilingual English-Spanish efforts!! -
you’d be howling bloody murder then, wouldn’t cha??

btw.
i began learning conversational Spanish in 1950’s public school, 4th grade.
i later took 2 years each of Spanish, German, Latin. i enjoy languages.

i visited Montreal in 1970-ish, and was mortified at the MAJOR BATTLE going on over French/English in Quebec Province.
i had no idea people could get so upset over language. Vietnam was raging. they were fighting over language.
my loss of innocence.

in the U.S., the German language was dismissed with ‘nigh a whimper?? nor a footnote in history?
o.wait. it’s racist to ask such questions.

Thomas Sowell / Debunking Systemic Racism ..

[PetrChelcicky]

Being a German, this part of history has got my interest, too. The best site for infomation is https://gaic.info/.
The detainees were often used for exchange deals with the German government, in favour of American war prisoners - it is open to discussion if part of the Germans were detained particularly for this reason.
Unfortunately we have nearly no reports from the detainees themselves but mostly from their children or grandchildren. The detainees tended to stay silent. Why exactly? I have found at least one statement that detainees,when released, had to underwrite that they would be silent about what they had experienced - rather a sinister statement, because that is just what people in Germany had to underwrite when the were released from a concentration camp. So there were things to be kept secret? And the former detainees involved in this probably felt that they risked new punishments if they spoke openly about their experiences?
I wish Mennonites with their interest in family history would have done more research about all this. That said, I suppose that Germans in the big cities at the East and West coast were more easily detained than in the Mennonite heartland.

[temporal1]

Being a German, this part of history has got my interest, too. The best site for infomation is https://gaic.info/.

The detainees were often used for exchange deals with the German government, in favour of American war prisoners - it is open to discussion if part of the Germans were detained particularly for this reason.

Unfortunately we have nearly no reports from the detainees themselves but mostly from their children or grandchildren.
The detainees tended to stay silent.

Why exactly?
I have found at least one statement that detainees,when released, had to underwrite that they would be silent about what they had experienced - rather a sinister statement, because that is just what people in Germany had to underwrite when the were released from a concentration camp. So there were things to be kept secret?

And the former detainees involved in this probably felt that they risked new punishments if they spoke openly about their experiences?

I wish Mennonites with their interest in family history would have done more research about all this.

That said, I suppose that Germans in the big cities at the East and West coast were more easily detained than in the Mennonite heartland.

Many thanks, PetrC.
i have no idea about Mennonites specifically. Hope others will contribute.

i will share your post and helpful link with my family.
(we) are not “very” German, a little more than Japanese. but this history (and questions thereof) should be interesting to all.

the fuller history reflects various cultural (and political) biases and responses to events. then, and now.