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One might as well enlist Erasmus, Zwingli, Constantine, and Augustine into that funnel as well, but they seems really afar field from anything relevant to present day Anabaptism, even if we do accept Constantine’s proposed model of the Trinity and cristology.

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:05 pm One might as well enlist Erasmus, Zwingli, Constantine, and Augustine into that funnel as well, but they seems really afar field from anything relevant to present day Anabaptism, even if we do accept Constantine’s proposed model of the Trinity and cristology.

I’m not sure I accept his model.

So maybe there is a funnel at both ends of the Anabaptist historical period?

It began with a fifteen year funnel from 1525 that narrowed down rapidly by 1540. The funnel started widening again in the mid to late 1800's as General Conference Mennonites began discarding the historic Anabaptists concepts of non-conformity, non-resistance, and separation of church and state. The enlarging funnel the last 175 years is much more significant in terms of how many people have participated in the deviations from historic Anabaptism.

I propose that anabaptism as a hermeneutic and way of living solidified by 1540 and continued with many of the same common tenants until about 1850. (granted there were splinters off the main trunk between 1540-1850 but they didn't continue to identify as Anabaptist)

Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:40 pm I propose that anabaptism as a hermeneutic and way of living solidified by 1540 and continued with many of the same common tenants tenets until about 1850. (granted there were splinters off the main trunk between 1540-1850 but they didn't continue to identify as Anabaptist)

There were also parallel streams that were woven into the Anabaptist family during the unfunneled period, including the Amish, Schwarzenau Brethren, and Fröhlich churches.

Funnels and weaving — we’re definitely mixing metaphors.

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:42 am Some Amishmen I used to work with in a tractor implement manufacturing operation used this single deliminator to determine if a person is Amish or not - "If you drive vehicles, you are not Amish." They were using this determiner to say that the Beachy Amish-Mennonites are not Amish at all, even though they claim to be, and are similar to both New & Old Order Amish in many other ways. (I told them that the Banawa were "more Amish" than they, because they walk everywhere..... )

The Münsterites built horse-drawn tanks. Sixteen of them, armored with iron, with room inside each one for six soldiers and their muskets, as well as provisions for a cannon. I would hope that the Amish of that day, had there been any, would have rejected those even without pneumatic tires and an internal combustion engine.

Each vehicle was designed to be pulled by six horses. But by the end, they had eaten the horses, so they dismantled the tanks and turned them into a fortress in the main square in which the remaining soldiers made their last stand.

ohio jones wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:34 am

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:42 am Some Amishmen I used to work with in a tractor implement manufacturing operation used this single deliminator to determine if a person is Amish or not - "If you drive vehicles, you are not Amish." They were using this determiner to say that the Beachy Amish-Mennonites are not Amish at all, even though they claim to be, and are similar to both New & Old Order Amish in many other ways. (I told them that the Banawa were "more Amish" than they, because they walk everywhere..... )

The Münsterites built horse-drawn tanks. Sixteen of them, armored with iron, with room inside each one for six soldiers and their muskets, as well as provisions for a cannon. I would hope that the Amish of that day, had there been any, would have rejected those even without pneumatic tires and an internal combustion engine.

Each vehicle was designed to be pulled by six horses. But by the end, they had eaten the horses, so they dismantled the tanks and turned them into a fortress in the main square in which the remaining soldiers made their last stand.

Yesteryears preppers. What a bunch of nuts.

It seems hard to separate it from “us” because there were a lot of connections between the Münsterites and the Dutch Anabaptists. I think there were connections with the Phillips brothers and possibly a brother or other relatives of Menno Simmons? (I’m a bit rusty.) Otherwise it be easier to put them in with all the other apocalyptic groups in the radical reformation that we don’t really remember much.

I do wonder how much of it is “history written by the victors” and what would have happened if they had held out. I wonder if Münster would be remembered more positively like Hussite Bohemia is.

Pelerin wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:37 pm It seems hard to separate it from “us” because there were a lot of connections between the Münsterites and the Dutch Anabaptists. I think there were connections with the Phillips brothers and possibly a brother or other relatives of Menno Simmons? (I’m a bit rusty.) Otherwise it be easier to put them in with all the other apocalyptic groups in the radical reformation that we don’t really remember much.

I do wonder how much of it is “history written by the victors” and what would have happened if they had held out. I wonder if Münster would be remembered more positively like Hussite Bohemia is.

I think that the blatant disregard for what the Scriptures teach would prevent that.

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:39 pmI think that the blatant disregard for what the Scriptures teach would prevent that.

Prevent that as in that they were too far off the deep end and would never have been able to pull anything stable together? Or that their disregard for the scriptures wouldn’t ever allow people to assess them more favorably. If it’s the second one… I have some bad news for you concerning several highly regarded historical groups.