Elian Gonzales

A place to discuss history and historical events.
temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

nett wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:01 pm I'm wonder if Ken, Sliceitup, and JM would all be defending the raid if it were happening today.
^^ You didn’t have to wait long.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:37 pm
nett wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:46 pm
Dunno, but I know that a swat team pointing an automatic weapon at a child is wrong, and I daresay evil. His mother gave her life so he could make it to the US, maybe the US should have just respected their asylum laws, and told Fidel Castro to figure out to make people want to stay, instead of trying to force them back.
Sounds like a great way to handle immigration at the southern border. Put the guns away and tell Mexico and Guatemala to figure out how to make their people want to stay, instead of trying to force them back.
Yes, and this is a significant factor in U.S. Foreign Aid! Christian missions do what they can.
Unfortunately, as HK has explained in some detail, incompetence, corruption, cartels, pirates, grossly sabotage.
It’s chilling.

Interesting to note, early on, even K Harris spoke to the reality that most migrants WANT to remain in their home countries!
This view has been discussed on forum, if i recall, it was about Syria as well as S America.

Congress earns its low approval rating. They don’t seem to have any problem with it, at all.

Who in their right mind would not want healthy, thriving countries/populations in the world!!?
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:08 pmInteresting to note, early on, even K Harris spoke to the reality that most migrants WANT to remain in their home countries!
This view has been discussed on forum, if i recall, it was about Syria as well as S America.

Congress earns its low approval rating. They don’t seem to have any problem with it, at all.

Who in their right mind would not want healthy, thriving countries/populations in the world!!?
Who? The list is very long.

1. International business interests. There is a LOT of money to be made in countries where people lack basic labor rights and you can pay people $5 per day and have them killed if they stir up trouble. There is a reason why so many textile mills have set up shop in Guatemala. They can hire 14 year old girls and pay them $5 a day.

2. Local elites who can only really hold onto wealth and power in the absence of thriving democracy. Many of them achieved and maintain their wealth through dirt cheap exploited labor working coffee plantations, sugarcane plantations, banana plantations, and so forth and want to keep things exactly like they are. A lot of them don't even live in Guatemala anymore, they live in Miami and just keep their plantation homes in Guatemala for vacations.

3. International drug traffickers. Central America is a MAJOR trans shipment point and all that drug money flowing through the country has absolutely corrupted the police and military.

4. Cold warrior politicians who would rather see a right wing military dictatorship no matter how repressive than a democratic government that they don't control that might lean towards social reform and such. This was actually a much bigger thing in decades past than today.

5. Local criminal gangs who would rather live in a society in which they can operate with impunity than one with actual law and order and justice.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

Who in their right mind would not want healthy, thriving countries/populations in the world!!?
sigh. emphasis clarified.
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temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:25 am President WJ Clinton
AG Janet Reno / SWAT

Elian Gonzales, age 6

PBS / “a chronology of the elián gonzalez saga”
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... ncron.html

NBC / (now 22 years) / “20 Years Later: Special Agent Behind Elian Gonzalez Controversy Tells His Story” | NBC 6 / 5min



CATO Institute / “Clinton Regime Outdoes Itself by Snatching Elian Gonzalez”
APRIL 24, 2000 • COMMENTARY
https://www.cato.org/commentary/clinton ... n-gonzalez
Saturday’s Nacht‐​und‐​Nebel-style seizure of Elian Gonzalez by armed U.S. agents resembled Munich 1940 more than Miami 2000. The abuses of power and excessive force in this revolting episode epitomize a federal police state that has goose‐​stepped from Ruby Ridge to Waco and now to Little Havana.
.. .. This raid supposedly was triggered after Attorney General Janet Reno decided that talks with the Gonzalez family had collapsed. Attorneys for the Gonzalezes say they spoke by phone with Reno and her subordinates late into the night and faxed proposals back and forth to Justice headquarters in Washington.

“For Janet Reno to say that negotiations had broken down at the time of the raid was an utter, utter lie,”
Barbara Lagoa, one of Elian’s attorneys, told Fox News Channel.

The president previously urged the Gonzalezes to follow the rule of law —
and who better than Bill Clinton could make such an admonition?

Nonetheless, it appears that federal officials trampled the rule of law when they burst into Lazaro Gonzalez’s private property with a dubious search warrant.

As Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe wrote in the April 25 New York Times, “it was not a warrant to seize the child.
Elian was not lost, and it is a semantic sleight of hand to compare his forcible removal to the seizure of evidence, which is what a search warrant is for.” Tribe, a veteran liberal, added: “Ms. Reno’s decision to take the law as well as the child into her own hands seems worse than a political blunder. Even if well intended, her decision strikes at the heart of constitutional government and shakes the safeguards of liberty.” :shock:

Furthermore, the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals ruled April 20 that Elian Gonzalez himself may have the right to seek political asylum in the United States, even against his father’s wishes. The decision that Elian is entitled to a day in court — specifically a May 11 INS asylum appeal hearing — argues against his immediate transfer to his father. Juan Miguel Gonzalez is currently influenced, if not thoroughly controlled, by Cuban functionaries. His parents are reportedly in a Cuban government compound, perhaps held as collateral until their son returns to Fidel Castro’s “workers’ paradise.” Juan Miguel has spent nearly his entire sojourn in America in the home of a senior Cuban diplomat. Imagine a North Korean boy who had escaped to Seoul awaiting a court hearing in the “neutral” territory of an apartment occupied by the Pyongyang regime’s attache. :shock:

The Circuit Court also chastised the Clinton Administration for ignoring Elian’s desires.
“According to the record, plaintiff — although a young child — has expressed a wish that he not be returned to Cuba,”
the three‐​judge panel wrote.

“It appears that never have INS officials attempted to interview plaintiff about his wishes.

“It is not clear that the INS, in finding plaintiff’s father to be the only proper representative, considered all of the relevant factors — particularly the child’s separate and independent interests in seeking asylum.”

Fox News analyst Dick Morris joked that Hillary Clinton’s next book will be called “It Takes a SWAT Team.” :shock:

The thuggishness of the Clinton Administration, reputedly the best friends a child could have, likely will scar Elian for years.
Just last April 17, the Justice Department released a letter from Dr. Irwin Redlener claiming that “Elian Gonzalez is now in a state of imminent danger to his physical and emotional well‐​being in a home that I consider to be psychologically abusive.”

Perhaps the Clintons and Janet Reno believed Elian would find federal gun muzzles psychologically soothing.
As Reno helpfully explained: “Elian Gonzalez is a child who needs to be cherished.” :shock:

Adding further to all this intrigue is the fact that Dr. Redlener is a pediatrician, not a psychologist.
As such, he is as qualified to comment on Elian’s state of mind as a psychologist is to treat him for chicken pox.
Beyond that, Dr. Redlener never even spoke with Elian.
Unless Dr. Redlener is clairvoyant, he seems entirely unable to evaluate Elian’s psyche.
Redlener, it transpires, also served on Hillary Clinton’s health care task force in 1993 and chaired the 1992 Clinton‐​Gore National Health Leadership Council. He is little more than an Administration flack with a stethoscope. :shock:

Add to this that Juan Miguel Gonzalez is represented by President Clinton’s top‐​dollar impeachment attorney, Greg Craig.

Nothing about the Elian Gonzalez case is as it seems.

An adorable six‐​year‐​old boy is the latest victim of a lawless regime seemingly bent on serving the political wishes of Fidel Castro,
even at gunpoint. So it goes these days in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

The raid was a news item that does not lose its shock value. In the relatively sleepy world prior to 9-11-2001.
“Going after a mouse with an elephant gun.”

In olden days, there was a highly esteemed philosophy that PROFESSIONALS (local police, feds, military, et al)
would employ great RESTRAINT, i.e., use the LEAST force necessary, to accomplish whatever assignment.
A moral code of conduct.

Under WJ Clinton, Janet Reno, the Elian incident was shocking to most of us in the general public.

In the NBC video above, the “Special Agent Behind” the raid applauds the raid/conduct. i find this peculiar.
He even points out how the firearm “was not pointed at Elian,” which MAY or may not be correct, i think it’s probably best to try to consider how YOUNG Elian interpretted the moment! A child is unlikely to notice the nuances of SWAT team raids.

:arrow: Children are transferred everyday in situations of custody disputes - without involving SWAT teams.
Elian was in a known small modest home, i don’t believe weapons were even suspected at the home.

Then or now, i don’t believe it’s wrong to question TIMING, TACTICS, of police/fed/military raids.

i continue to respect discretion and restraint whenever possible in law enforcement - no matter level.
we know they’re armed! they don’t have to wave it around in children’s faces.

the least professional, would use “overkill” in approach.
(in the U.S., we like to believe “overkill” is less professional, and generally prefer to believe U.S. police, feds, military are “better-than” others).

Janet Reno’s name is directly connected to this incident of terrible optics. WJ Clinton was at the helm.

i admit, i’m a bit surprised at the “Special Agent Behind” the raid. i would think, along with his applause for the agents’ great conduct/training, he might have tempered this with admission that “less show of force” in this case would have been preferable.

It’s not that anyone is questioning what is known about U.S. capabilities of FORCE OF THE SWORD!
It’s that, in good taste, the least “show” of force to accomplish the task at hand, is generally considered the better approach.

In general, i think courts, police, child protective services, value minimizing potential trauma to children.
It’s not that anyone is ignorant of the potential force involved. It’s keeping traumatic drama to a minimum in front of children.

Not shovng it into their faces.

It’s ok to question tactics.
The goal should be for a more civilized-appearing society. Whether children are in the spotlight or not.
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nett
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:22 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Fellowship

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by nett »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:21 pm
nett wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:46 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:09 pm No, I don't and never have. I tend not to support the militarization of our police forces.

How do you think the government should have enforced Juan Gonzalez's custody claims over his own son?
Dunno, but I know that a swat team pointing an automatic weapon at a child is wrong, and I daresay evil. His mother gave her life so he could make it to the US, maybe the US should have just respected their asylum laws, and told Fidel Castro to figure out to make people want to stay, instead of trying to force them back.
Asylum is not at issue. There is no international law under which a distant relative has greater custody claim than an actual parent
So international law means they needed to point an automatic weapon on a 5 year-old. Maybe whatever international law you're appealing to is a problem.

Ken, we don't need to continue this. You just proved my point that you will literally defend anything that is left-wing regardless of the evil involved. Thank you for your participation.
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temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

.. The [Elian] raid was a news item that does not lose its shock value. In the relatively sleepy world prior to 9-11-2001.
it’s hard to remember life before Homeland Security and other gov over reaches that resulted/continue to result from 9-11.
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Josh

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by Josh »

There are many things in life we can't count on, but we do seem to be able to count on liberals to always defend a violent, murderous police state.
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temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:17 am There are many things in life we can't count on, but we do seem to be able to count on liberals to always defend a violent, murderous police state.
they call it, “normal politics.” and don’t tolerate anything but.
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justme

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by justme »

I thot it was the liberals that were crying defund the police.
Are they defending or are they defunding?
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temporal1

Re: Elian Gonzales

Post by temporal1 »

justme wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:43 pm I thot it was the liberals that were crying defund the police.
Are they defending or are they defunding?
Fair question.

It seems, “defunding” chants have caused all kinna serious problems, on the streets, up to and including feds and military.

Turns out, there’s no way to encode,
“we want what we want, when we want it, how we want it,” into law of the land.
Be careful what you wish for.

This is not a profound video, it’s lengthy, it’s informal, he addresses some of the confusion.
It doesn’t begin until about 10min+ in. (evidently some recording problems.) i viewed, but i don’t blame anyone for not viewing.

Ty Smith / Breaking News! Biden's 'pathetic political stunt' claiming Dems are pro-law enforcement! - Since when? / 46min


i’m interested in what folks are thinking who are not in the mainstream, everyday people. there are many.
i think it’s a mistake to ignore them. the internet allows ordinary folks the ability to communicate, whether the world notices or not.
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