The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Bootstrap]

Among Protestants, mainline Protestantism will fade, committed Evangelicals and Pentecostals will remain strong and may grow or remain stable or decline somewhat

He might be a bit late to the party. Groups like PC USA or The Episcopal Church have for quite a few years by now not done much other than operate their trust funds and trim the bushes in their cemeteries.

I'm not convinced the label on the outside of a church tells you how healthy the church is. Tim Keller's Presbyterian ministries grew from a small group of 15 to multiple churches and ministries, with thousands of members. I think there are good reasons for his success, but he is also saying he doesn't expect that to be the main story for mainline Protestants. I agree.

As white nominal Christianity fades, ethnic minorities will become the majority among American Christians

This is another odd conclusion. What does race have to do with anything? Nominal Christianity is something people of all races engage in; likewise, people of all races are not Christians, and likewise people of all races are also Christians.

On average, non-white Christians are retaining their faith better and have higher birth rates. I don't have a good explanation for that, but I think the data is pretty clear.

Islam will become a significant religious movement, coexisting peacefully with Christianity

One wonders how "ethnic minorities" will be the majority of Christians if at the same time he thinks Islam will be a significant religious movement. (And why would it be a significant movement, unless there is a concerted movement to try to cause population churn of moving people from Muslim-majority countries to the U.S.?)

If I understood him correctly, he thinks that Christianity will remain the largest religion in the United States, but churches will be composed of people with more conviction and dedication, and the majority of Christians will be non-white. He expects Islam in America to look a lot like Judaism in America. Not a threat to Christianity, not hostile to Christians, not as large a force as Christianity, but clearly present.

That seems likely to me. That's what it looks like to him in New York City, where he works. That's what it looks like to me here in Durham, NC.

Keller thinks we should focus on building the Kingdom of God, not on trying to prevent demographic changes that are not in our control. I agree. The biggest problem we face, in my opinion, is that Christianity has become associated with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God, and these things are not drawing people to Jesus. If we want to be compelling, we need to be promoting the same Kingdom that Jesus did. The same biblical Gospel. The same loving service to others. The same deeply rooted trust in God. The same love for one another.

[Bootstrap]

Here's one of many indicators of the relationship between race and faith in America.

[Sudsy]

Just recently decided, after one year of no church attending due to Covid, will likely spend my senior years fellowshipping with Christians in other ways than an institutional church setting. So, no effect

I'm curious - how do you plan to build fellowship in your life? What led to this decision? What plans are you making?

I currently don't have a 'plan to build fellowship' but I believe the Lord will make a way. My wife and I explore various aspects of the Christian life daily and both have our own sources in books and the Internet that we use to feed from spiritually. Just yesterday when I told our pastor we were deciding to be visitors only, he reminded us of the importance of a church home and in finding one. I expected that exhortation and appreciate his advice.

I have found 'fellowship' to be more of a social acquaintance in most churches rather than a time together where the primary interest and discussions are on how best to serve the Lord. Other than set times like a Sunday service and a weekly bible study, most of the 'fellowship' is talk and get-to-gethers that are quite earthy (family, vacations, food, hobbies, secular interests, current events) and little excitement and sharing on the Lord and what is happening to further His Kingdom. I remember fellowship when I was young being quite different than that. The entire day, while going through the basic activities of life, our excitement was focused on knowing and serving God. And in my twenties I found a church, not the one I was raised in, that began living that way. What a great experience this was for a few years.

Since COVID and not attending church but watching our church and others on TV, I find more spiritual fellowship on this forum than I was getting throughout the week at our church. I keep pushing for the threads to be more Kingdom focused and know I need to back off as not everyone is here for the same reasons and might understand 'fellowship' differently. I will try to be more accepting of that and I do appreciate the forum adding the feature where I can lock out the Politics forum.

I have participated in Pentecostal (2 kinds), Baptist (2 kinds), Mennonite and Salvation Army fellowships. Imo, all of them have their strengths and weaknesses as a fellowship serving the Lord. My upbringing is evangelical (striving to see souls saved) and would likely be drawn to a fellowship with that kind of focus. Just taking it one day at a time and those I'm running out of.

[Bootstrap]

I have found 'fellowship' to be more of a social acquaintance in most churches rather than a time together where the primary interest and discussions are on how best to serve the Lord. Other than set times like a Sunday service and a weekly bible study, most of the 'fellowship' is talk and get-to-gethers that are quite earthy (family, vacations, food, hobbies, secular interests, current events) and little excitement and sharing on the Lord and what is happening to further His Kingdom. I remember fellowship when I was young being quite different than that. The entire day, while going through the basic activities of life, our excitement was focused on knowing and serving God. And in my twenties I found a church, not the one I was raised in, that began living that way. What a great experience this was for a few years.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I have been able to return to a church where I had real, meaningful fellowship for years. It makes a huge difference. It's not easy to find.

[Ken]

There is still a big hunger for spirituality in this country. I expect as traditional denominations decline they will to some extent be replaced by nondenominational community churches and such. As Christianity becomes more something you actively choose to join rather than something you inherited from your parents and grandparents. I definitely see that in this part of the county. Many of the biggest and most active churches are nondenominational community churches and not those tied to any traditional denomination.

Nondenominational have little to no accountability. I do not see this as a good thing. It will continue to degrade Scripture and there will be no unity of faith, but little pockets of minor kingdoms with little coordinated work. Divided we fall.

Yet the early church had no denominations and most modern denominations are no more than a few centuries old at best.

[Josh]

Among Protestants, mainline Protestantism will fade, committed Evangelicals and Pentecostals will remain strong and may grow or remain stable or decline somewhat

He might be a bit late to the party. Groups like PC USA or The Episcopal Church have for quite a few years by now not done much other than operate their trust funds and trim the bushes in their cemeteries.

I'm not convinced the label on the outside of a church tells you how healthy the church is. Tim Keller's Presbyterian ministries grew from a small group of 15 to multiple churches and ministries, with thousands of members. I think there are good reasons for his success, but he is also saying he doesn't expect that to be the main story for mainline Protestants. I agree.

As white nominal Christianity fades, ethnic minorities will become the majority among American Christians

This is another odd conclusion. What does race have to do with anything? Nominal Christianity is something people of all races engage in; likewise, people of all races are not Christians, and likewise people of all races are also Christians.

On average, non-white Christians are retaining their faith better and have higher birth rates. I don't have a good explanation for that, but I think the data is pretty clear.

Islam will become a significant religious movement, coexisting peacefully with Christianity

One wonders how "ethnic minorities" will be the majority of Christians if at the same time he thinks Islam will be a significant religious movement. (And why would it be a significant movement, unless there is a concerted movement to try to cause population churn of moving people from Muslim-majority countries to the U.S.?)

If I understood him correctly, he thinks that Christianity will remain the largest religion in the United States, but churches will be composed of people with more conviction and dedication, and the majority of Christians will be non-white. He expects Islam in America to look a lot like Judaism in America. Not a threat to Christianity, not hostile to Christians, not as large a force as Christianity, but clearly present.

That seems likely to me. That's what it looks like to him in New York City, where he works. That's what it looks like to me here in Durham, NC.

Keller thinks we should focus on building the Kingdom of God, not on trying to prevent demographic changes that are not in our control. I agree. The biggest problem we face, in my opinion, is that Christianity has become associated with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God, and these things are not drawing people to Jesus. If we want to be compelling, we need to be promoting the same Kingdom that Jesus did. The same biblical Gospel. The same loving service to others. The same deeply rooted trust in God. The same love for one another.

How’s that plan working out for Christianity in Egypt?

Or Syria? The only reason Christianity isn’t been exterminated there is because Assad doesn’t want it to be.

Your utopian vision of “kingdom building” whilst ignoring concerted attempts by those who hate Christianity belies a certain level of wilful ignorance. There are powerful forces at play that want to stamp out Christianity, make it socially unacceptable, and eventually make it impossible to have a job and be a Christian. Attempts at “demographic changes” are just one part of that. The end result of allowing this kind of shift to happen is what happened to Copts in Egypt: prohibited from evangelising, can’t build new church buildings, and can’t repair them when they are vandalised or burned down.

[RZehr]

There is still a big hunger for spirituality in this country. I expect as traditional denominations decline they will to some extent be replaced by nondenominational community churches and such. As Christianity becomes more something you actively choose to join rather than something you inherited from your parents and grandparents. I definitely see that in this part of the county. Many of the biggest and most active churches are nondenominational community churches and not those tied to any traditional denomination.

Nondenominational have little to no accountability. I do not see this as a good thing. It will continue to degrade Scripture and there will be no unity of faith, but little pockets of minor kingdoms with little coordinated work. Divided we fall.

Yet the early church had no denominations and most modern denominations are no more than a few centuries old at best.

They had factions and sects. What’s the difference? It just takes time to grow a small group from nothing, to a sect, then to divide into a denomination.
Right from the beginning, they were jockeying for positions and were arguing over matters.

[Josh]

Nondenominational have little to no accountability. I do not see this as a good thing. It will continue to degrade Scripture and there will be no unity of faith, but little pockets of minor kingdoms with little coordinated work. Divided we fall.

Yet the early church had no denominations and most modern denominations are no more than a few centuries old at best.

1054 was quite a few centuries ago, almost 10, to be exact. 451 was even more centuries ago. I'll admit 1534 was "only" 4 centuries ago, but that still seems like more than a few.

Considering I just listed the dates of the schisms of the largest modern denominations in the world, I'd say that denominations are, indeed, quite old.

[temporal1]

How’s that plan working out for Christianity in Egypt?

Or Syria? The only reason Christianity isn’t been exterminated there is because Assad doesn’t want it to be.

Your utopian vision of “kingdom building” whilst ignoring concerted attempts by those who hate Christianity belies a certain level of wilful ignorance. There are powerful forces at play that want to stamp out Christianity, make it socially unacceptable, and eventually make it impossible to have a job and be a Christian.

Attempts at “demographic changes” are just one part of that.
The end result of allowing this kind of shift to happen is what happened to Copts in Egypt: prohibited from evangelising,
can’t build new church buildings, and can’t repair them when they are vandalised or burned down.

From the Gun Shop thread:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3724&start=50

.. when “gun laws” are passed, it’s by “force of the sword.” (Christians might recognize the irony.)

earthly governments are important. they serve important earthly functions.

they are not replacement for our 1 God in heaven. lines have been badly blurred in recent decades.
gov schools do nothing to correct, or put things in balance. or even to allow.

a personal example:
on Easter Sunday, our family enjoyed an informal 1 hour zoom gathering, mostly led by my 13 yr old grdaughter.
she has had a touching interest in Jesus and her faith from young, before she could read. thankfully, it has continued and grown with her. she began formal ed in a Catholic school, K-3. then moved “next door” to public school.
her first lesson was, “no speaking of Jesus or the Bible in school” she takes it to heart, respects others.

when i gave her the gospel reading from John to open our family gathering, she respectfully protested, “but, grammie, not everyone is Catholic!” etc. (she is careful to follow school rules.)

i assured her, “this is your family.
i know everyone in our family is not Catholic (i’m not, she knows, but we do not deliberate on it) -
everyone in your family knows about Jesus and the Bible. not all Bibles are exactly like Catholic Bibles, but every Christian knows about Easter and that Jesus lives!” so, it’s ok to read the gospel to your family on Easter.

i definitely grieve.

she was assured, and read beautifully.

she does not know she is reading to some staunch unbelievers in the family.
God willing, she will have to cross that bridge one day. hopefully, He will help her stand up to a hostile world, even within her family.

i grieve, but, at the same time, what a blessing there is in all this.
there is great value in these now “forced” conversations about how+why we choose to be Christians.
taking for granted is not the best way.

i pray the family unbelievers are touched by an innocent in Jesus.
we choose our steps, the Holy Spirit determines outcomes.

This is 1 of many personal examples of how my public school educated granddaughter is getting a CLEAR message that Christianity is NOT to be mentioned, ever, because it’s disrespectful of others. She is a sincere respectful child, she takes instruction to heart. She does not want to harm others.

She is seriously reluctant to read from the gospel on Easter Sunday to her close family.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH GOV SCHOOLS.

When i experience this - she began in 3rd grade, now she’s in 7th grade, your words resonate.

She is a child who has had a touching interest in Jesus and her faith since before she could read.
She attended Catholic school, K-3 and THRIVED learning (without denial of God, but with respect for Him) included in the daily curriculum. i’m sure she was a bit shocked to then be told in no uncertain terms, “no Jesus, no Bible,” in public school.
She was young and adapted. That’s what children do.

She attends the same church as ever.
i wonder how she processes messages she receives from church to “share the gospel” while the gospel is banned from her public school setting? she has to ignore one message or the other. right?

These are children who mostly grow up and vote:
most vote in ways gov schools have groomed them to vote, from kindergarten. Pride, no shame about politicizing everyone’s children. - regardless of what their churches may have instructed. who has the most time and influence on (everyone’s) children?

certainly, parents+grandparents MUST step up.
there was/is ‘way too much reliance on gov schools to raise children!!! many vote for it, they can’t get enough.

union gov school teachers are inclined to make parents feel inadequate. employment security.
reality is, parents are #1 influence on their children. this should be widely recognized, valued and strengthened, not diminished. empower parents.

Where are the surprises? i see none.

[Bootstrap]

Keller thinks we should focus on building the Kingdom of God, not on trying to prevent demographic changes that are not in our control. I agree. The biggest problem we face, in my opinion, is that Christianity has become associated with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God, and these things are not drawing people to Jesus. If we want to be compelling, we need to be promoting the same Kingdom that Jesus did. The same biblical Gospel. The same loving service to others. The same deeply rooted trust in God. The same love for one another.

How’s that plan working out for Christianity in Egypt?

Or Syria? The only reason Christianity isn’t been exterminated there is because Assad doesn’t want it to be.

How well has revolution served Syria or Egypt or other countries? How well has civil war served Christians anywhere? How well has the Kingdom of God been served by allying itself with political factions?

The early church faced lots of persecution. It stayed true to building the Kingdom of God. The church today faces plenty of persecution in many countries. But when Christianity turns into an "us versus them" exercise, along political lines, it turns into something else.

Your utopian vision of “kingdom building” whilst ignoring concerted attempts by those who hate Christianity belies a certain level of wilful ignorance. There are powerful forces at play that want to stamp out Christianity, make it socially unacceptable, and eventually make it impossible to have a job and be a Christian. Attempts at “demographic changes” are just one part of that. The end result of allowing this kind of shift to happen is what happened to Copts in Egypt: prohibited from evangelising, can’t build new church buildings, and can’t repair them when they are vandalised or burned down.

But 68% of immigrants are Christian, only 4% are Muslim. That's very similar to the percent of Americans who identify as Christian.

Immigration has certainly increased the size of the Catholic Church.

To me, that doesn't look like an attempt to replace Christianity with Islam or atheism. To me, the fear scenarios you mention are alarmist stories that some political factions use to keep people galvanized and engaged. I don't think Christians are facing much persecution in the United States, but our fear of persecution is out of proportion to what I have seen in some countries where there is much more actual persecution.

Regardless, I can't compromise on what Jesus has called us to - building the Kingdom of God. I would rather be a martyr than support some revolution that claims to protect me. I feel like a lot of what I hear in some circles is a fear-based defensive politically-aligned outlook that does not look like the Sermon on the Mount. That won't help build the Kingdom of God.