When talking with people who use the English word 'Dutch' to refer to what in the language itself they call 'Datsch', I say 'Holland Dutch, not PA Dutch'. But THEY are the ones who are using the 'wrong' word - that's not my fault, and I don't mind 'educating people', if they want to listen. If they aren't interested, then the subject of conversation drifts on to other things. When I used to self-identify as "Russian Mennonite" around here (back when I first came to Holmes County, Fall of 1982, then moved here at the end of the following Summer), many Beachy Amish-Mennonite people were surprised, and said they didn't know that there were Russians who were Mennonite. So it required clarification, to let them know that I was not talking about being ethnic Russian. I wasn't by any means the first of my people to come to this area, that had happened log ago. But as a history buff, I brought it up maybe too often. (Sometimes I did that to explain why I couldn't speak or understand "Datsch", and at the same time avoid the impression that I was "English". That would have made my close friendship with my future wife quite shocking, and unacceptable, in those circles and at that time.)Josh wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 12:31 pmThis is confusing, because using the term "Dutch" around here usually is in reference to Pennsylvania Dutch, which encompass the Swiss Brethren groups. My wife and her family would be quite confident they aren't "Dutch" since they aren't Amish or PA Dutch. They would be very comfortable saying they are Russian Mennonites.
Well, the term arose in 1874 when people came from Russia (despite some people's insistence on calling it Ukraine), and they were Mennonites. So they got called Russian Mennonites. That's the accepted term.And, there were also Swiss Mennonites in Russia, and they were not Plautdietsch people. So 'Dutch Mennonite' is an ethnic description that goes back farther than does "Russian Mennonite", which I do not consider an accurate ethnic description.
"Plautdietsch" isn't a term anyone in my circles really ever uses; the handful of people who can speak it might say they speak "plaut". I don't think anyone I go to church with really would agree that they have a "Plautdietsch identity". They would feel comfortable with terms "Russian Mennonite" and "Holdeman", although "Holdeman" includes non-Russian Mennonite people.(And, also even farther back than is the Plautdietsch identity.)
As a theological reference, "Dutch Mennonite" is a useful term; as an ethnic reference, I don't think it is very useful, since it is just confusing, and as I said earlier, the people I know/live with/work with/go to church with who would fit in your ethnic reference would reject the term and in particular reject it saying they aren't "Dutch".I would have to go back and find all of my uses of 'Dutch Mennonite' to be sure this is accurate, but I THINK I use the term in these two ways or for these two distinctions: as an Ethnic reference, and as a theological reference (that is, as distinct from Swiss Brethren tradition). Many people, however, use even just "Mennonite" as an ethnic reference. For me, it is primarily a theological reference. I realize that many consider it a cultural reference, but since there are very significant cultural differences within that general category, I choose to use more exact terminology. It's a bit like someone saying they are 'Cherokee', or 'Osage', as opposed to saying that they are 'American Indian', or 'Native American'. (Then there are also language family distinctions as well.)
There is another reason I sort of latched onto the ethnic claim of being 'Dutch", one I don't think I've ever mentioned. I grew up thinking we were 'German', because the language of the church was German, and Plautdietsch was commonly referred to (in English) as "Low German". (Not entirely inaccurate.) I was bullied in public school for being "German", so when I found out that we aren't really German, but rather Dutch, I was relieved. I was actually almost shocked how much relief it gave me.
