No Turning Back (either to Christendom or Secularism)

[Josh]

Josh, I find your explanation interesting, and I'm still thinking through it. What do you think about the quote from McClymond I reproduced above that associates some of the Radical Reformers with universalism in a non-contemporary setting? Or to phrase it more directly, was there something about the Radical Reformation that led to the universalism (since it didn't really arise for Catholics or magisterial Protestants)? Or do you think that the universalism was just a random historical accident and didn't really have anything to do with the fact that some of those who professed it were also associated with the Radical Reformation?

The Radical Reformers had some odd people in their mix. As far as I know, universalism is most associated with Felix Manz (who is also my erstwhile icon). There were pockets of universalism much later in the Schwarzenau Brethren, and indeed today the only universalist Anabaptist sect is one particular horse-and-buggy Brethren group. (One could argue that the hyper-progressive liberal end of Anabaptism is probably universalist too, but so far none have a creed saying so.)

But this is in the context of quite a few other odd people, like the Münsterites. Melchior Hoffman would be one example. Batenburgers would be another, even more extreme example. Against this context, universalism doesn't seem nearly so odd.

Overall, however, the main thrust of Anabaptist was apocalyptic, which is necessarily in conflict with universalism. The Radical Reformers overall did not have a universalist component. It is not surprising, however, that universalists today often find as many historical examples as they can of past figures who might have been universalists. It is no different than modern-day nonresistant Anabaptists who cite the historical example of Waldensians, Moravians, and Cathars, even though they would never make fellowship with them today. (Moravians infant baptise; Cathars were basically Gnostics.)

To repeat my earlier point, we find universalism the most strongly entrenched in the Magisterial Reformation. This would lead me to believe the disease leading to universalism lies somewhere in that wing of the reformation.

[joey_the_ox]

Overall, however, the main thrust of Anabaptist was apocalyptic, which is necessarily in conflict with universalism.

Thanks for the reply - you've given me some names to research (Batenburgers?) and food for thought.

I'm not sure I agree with the part I quoted above - at least I don't see how there is necessarily a conflict. Hart seems to be thinking along apocalyptic lines, though his apocalypse is a universalist one. (He actually has a new book out titled Tradition and Apocalypse.)

[Josh]

Overall, however, the main thrust of Anabaptist was apocalyptic, which is necessarily in conflict with universalism.

Thanks for the reply - you've given me some names to research (Batenburgers?) and food for thought.

I'm not sure I agree with the part I quoted above - at least I don't see how there is necessarily a conflict. Hart seems to be thinking along apocalyptic lines, though his apocalypse is a universalist one. (He actually has a new book out titled Tradition and Apocalypse.)

By apocalyptic, I mean in traditional, orthodox Christian terms: the Lord is returning and thus it will be too late to be baptised or to repent, and thus one will incur damnation.

[HondurasKeiser]

Overall, however, the main thrust of Anabaptist was apocalyptic, which is necessarily in conflict with universalism.

Thanks for the reply - you've given me some names to research (Batenburgers?) and food for thought.

I'm not sure I agree with the part I quoted above - at least I don't see how there is necessarily a conflict. Hart seems to be thinking along apocalyptic lines, though his apocalypse is a universalist one. (He actually has a new book out titled Tradition and Apocalypse.)

By apocalyptic, I mean in traditional, orthodox Christian terms: the Lord is returning and thus it will be too late to be baptised or to repent, and thus one will incur damnation.

I think I see what you’re saying. There’s an urgency to evangelizing the lost that we see both in the NT Church and later in the early Anabaptists that is of a piece with their belief in Christ’s imminent return. A Universalist might not feel the same urgency to spread the Gospel because in the end… “All shall be saved.”

[Josh]

I think I see what you’re saying. There’s an urgency to evangelizing the lost that we see both in the NT Church and later in the early Anabaptists that is of a piece with their belief in Christ’s imminent return. A Universalist might not feel the same urgency to spread the Gospel because in the end… “All shall be saved.”

There is also a sense of urgency that we must abandon sin and start living lives 100% sold out to following Jesus. The universalist movement simply does not have this fervor. They were focused rather on gradual societal change.