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Jazman wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 12:37 pm

Ernie wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 9:27 am

JohnH wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 9:12 am Interestingly, an ex-Amish woman, Torah Bontrager, is dedicating her life to trying to bring the state back onto the church by somehow overturning that decision.

Sad. https://lancasteronline.com/features/fo ... 932ea.html

This could be spun off into a whole other discussion... I can see sadness on both sides... my own family story testifies to the unintended consequences of 8th grade only vs at least a HS education. I think some OO Amish would benefit from some HS education in their own schools or maybe home school style after the 1-room 8th grade only... (I would disagree somewhat with Kraybill's assertion in this piece, for ex this - “They’re creative, they’re savvy. They're doing well. So why would [they] need more than eighth grade?” Kraybill asks.
But why not send their children past the eighth grade in their own schools?
It's simply not necessary for their way of life, he says. It works for them." (Some of their businesses and its necessary interaction with the "English" world might strain this, if not now, maybe sometime, soon?)

Anyway back to the OP...

Can you tell us more about the unintended consequences?

Are there any Amish groups who forbid their young people from doing high school at home?

My children learned all they "need " to know in eight grades in order to function in society. I'm glad they are getting an additional 4 years, to help with their personal development and to get introduced to more fields of knowledge.

My children can go to college if they want. At this point they do not see a need for it.

If Anabaptist parents are forbidding their children from doing high school at home, I can see that as being problematic for at least some individuals. But I am not sure how waiting until they are 18 to do high school will disadvantage them greatly in the long term. There are other things to learn outside of formal schooling in the teen years that is invaluable for life.

My denomination still does 8th grade education, except in areas with a hostile state government that won’t respect the Wisconsin v Yoder decision, where we go to age 16 (tends to be middle of grade
10).

A challenge is finding things for young people age 14 and 15 to do. Fewer and fewer people run their own businesses and it’s hard for youth that age to work in jobs for other people. The Amish have less of this problem.

Some places like western Kansas are doing 9th grade mostly to keep kids busy. They teach vocational topics like QuickBooks, typing practice and so on.

I learned recently that one reason Holdemans wanted no upper grade schooling (called “higher education”) was to prevent romances developing between grade 9-12 aged people - too young to marry, but too old for romance to be easily avoided. (That isn’t a reason Amish eschew it, as far as I know.)

Lots of Holdemans go get a GED or the California equivalent. This is, apparently, not difficult to do. A handful will go to college if they are a bit older (age 25+). We are trying to assess how to support college students whilst dealing with the spiritual dangers that go with that.

A GED is a significant disadvantage for someone entering the military. That is irrelevant for Anabaptists though.

JohnH wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 2:13 pm A challenge is finding things for young people age 14 and 15 to do. Fewer and fewer people run their own businesses and it’s hard for youth that age to work in jobs for other people.

In many Plain Anabaptist communities, older teens now want jobs, instead of helping busy mothers, elderly, farmers, or those who cannot afford hired help.
Are there Plain Anabaptist communities that have been able to stave off this trend?

I suppose 14-16-year-olds could do some of the above things if community service was a value that continued to be nurtured in the church.

Interestingly, here in State College, we have college students begging for ways to volunteer.

Ernie wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 2:23 pm In many Plain Anabaptist communities, older teens now want jobs, instead of helping busy mothers, elderly, farmers, or those who cannot afford hired help.

I have said this is the biggest risk to embracing higher education is the desire for jobs instead of serving the community as a 14-15 year old.

Are there Plain Anabaptist communities that have been able to stave off this trend?

In my circles it is easy to find a 12-15 year old girl willing to help with a new baby, help clean, and so on. Transportation must be provided. (Horse and buggy groups don’t have this problem since people under 16 have access to the same transportation adults do.)

It is, however, less widespread than it used to be. Once age 16 hits, girls get jobs and cars and are busy with social activities and youth events. The older generation often complains about this change.

Youth girls and youth boys as well used to assist with elderly relatives but as far as I can tell this is nearly extinct. We still have it in my area due to my area resisting building nursing homes. I have spoken with Amish who have complained about seeing similar changes.

I suppose 14-16-year-olds could do some of the above things if community service was a value that continued to be nurtured in the church.

If they don’t see adults doing these things and providing them opportunities to do so, they won’t do them. Age 14 is still highly impressionable. The fault lies with parents and the membership as a whole.

Interestingly, here in State College, we have college students begging for ways to volunteer.

I have often felt elderly care could be done by college students. There is a lot of spare time when you still have to be present that could be spent studying. And visiting between elderly and college students would also be beneficial.

In our congregation, there is no interest in college education, other than one member a few years ago who studied to become a doctor, and who moved away for residency and now practices out of state. There is a lot of emphasis on having a good school, but I would estimate that only half of our students graduate, the rest leaving typically in 10th or 11th.

I could wish that there were a little more interest in education. I'm told our school struggles with reading comprehension scores in achievement tests where they are measured against other similar private schools. I wish that as a group we had better skills in some areas, such as interest in history, critical thinking, and public speaking.

However, those things are not strictly necessary to be a good follower of Jesus, even though they might help a Christian be more effective in some ways. Also, frankly there are some students who struggle academically to the point where it doesn't seem all that beneficial to force them through twelve years of school. They may excel in other skills such as those required by many sorts of jobs, and often go on to be just as successful or more successful than those who have a more full formal education.

I have to give a commencement address at my daughter's graduation this week, and I would like to somehow congratulate and encourage the class without making those students who don't plan to graduate feel like second-class citizens.

Something around 5-15% of our graduating students go to a "traditional" academy. I am ok with this. One can be a lifelong learner without a formal "degree" or education. That said, for those for whom additional formal "book learning" is right, I support them in additional "book learning." We have very few that don't finish 12th grade. Less than 10%.

I do find it interesting that in many/most (almost all) really successful Amish/OO/CA businesses the first generation is largely uneducated formally, but as the business grows/expands, almost always subsequent generations step into/hire/train formally educated folks. It also seems very common in those instances that the original entrepreneur voices the idea that they wish they would have had the opportunity for more education and often they are big supporters of CA schools.

I could give many examples in Lancaster, Holmes, and other places.

Ernie wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 2:23 pm

JohnH wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 2:13 pm A challenge is finding things for young people age 14 and 15 to do. Fewer and fewer people run their own businesses and it’s hard for youth that age to work in jobs for other people.

In many Plain Anabaptist communities, older teens now want jobs, instead of helping busy mothers, elderly, farmers, or those who cannot afford hired help.
Are there Plain Anabaptist communities that have been able to stave off this trend?

I have one daughter who graduated a year ago and another who is graduating this week. Both of them were asked about teaching school during their senior year. Our opinion has been that an 18-year old graduate could benefit from some further maturation before going right back into the classroom as a teacher. Both of them are working in my business, and my older daughter is looking to go into voluntary service next year.

I like the ideal of older teens helping busy mothers. However, I am not sure that we have too many mothers with significant needs in our community. Most of our families have their children well-spaced, and mothers often have home businesses such as raising dogs, or work part-time at their family's business, or sell products from their homes. Even though some of those have asked for my girls to work for them, we have not felt motivated to encourage our girls that they need to clean house and watch children so the mother has time for her business. We don't feel it's a genuinely significant need.

There are communities where the families homeschool, and mothers with large families have a significant workload between housework, tending preschoolers, and teaching students all at the same time. My wife did this for 13 years with no help and 12 children to manage. If we were seeing situations like this in our community, I think we would be more likely to encourage our teen girls to offer help.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 3:35 pm
I do find it interesting that in many/most (almost all) really successful Amish/OO/CA businesses the first generation is largely uneducated formally, but as the business grows/expands, almost always subsequent generations step into/hire/train formally educated folks. It also seems very common in those instances that the original entrepreneur voices the idea that they wish they would have had the opportunity for more education and often they are big supporters of CA schools.

I could give many examples in Lancaster, Holmes, and other places.

I think the cycle you are observing is probably a variation of the Strauss-Howe Generational Theory.
The generational cycle is something like:
I fight in war. So that my son has it better.
Son: I go into business. So that my son has it better.
Grandson: I become educated. That is better.
Great-grandson: I am pragmatic and individualistic.

This cycle is commonly found in family business/fortunes, as observed by the notion that one family makes the money, next generation maintains it, third generation loses it.

Or in church cultures. One generation pays a high cost for taking a stand, the next generation accepts it, the third questions it.

Interesting though, how we are all simultaneously a first, second and third generation, depending on when we want to start the count. If I start at my grandparents, I am the cursed third. If I start at my parents, I am the boring maintainer. But it is up to me as a man of free will, to decide to be a first generation.

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 3:35 pm Something around 5-15% of our graduating students go to a "traditional" academy. I am ok with this. One can be a lifelong learner without a formal "degree" or education. That said, for those for whom additional formal "book learning" is right, I support them in additional "book learning." We have very few that don't finish 12th grade. Less than 10%.

I do find it interesting that in many/most (almost all) really successful Amish/OO/CA businesses the first generation is largely uneducated formally, but as the business grows/expands, almost always subsequent generations step into/hire/train formally educated folks. It also seems very common in those instances that the original entrepreneur voices the idea that they wish they would have had the opportunity for more education and often they are big supporters of CA schools.

I could give many examples in Lancaster, Holmes, and other places.

In my cultural background, where we are all highly decorated (cousin is an MD or Master’s, sister in law is a PhD, brother has two bachelors, parents both have Masters, etc.) none of us are entrepreneurial and all are at the mercy of working for other employers. We all seem to be less capable than a typical Amish settlement.

Plain people with 8th grade education often have a distorted idea of higher education. Perhaps they hire people from the top 1% of their classes.

JohnH wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2026 5:52 pm Plain people with 8th grade education often have a distorted idea of higher education. Perhaps they hire people from the top 1% of their classes.

What do you mean by the last sentence?