Refugees - have they been a problem?

[Bootstrap]

Refugees and general immigration are two different things and unfair when they are lumped together. Challenge is many unfairly used refugee status and are really just immigrants. Clearing these lines will not make people happy.

I agree that refugees are a special case.

https://worldrelief.org/what-is-a-refugee/

What is a refugee?

Refugees are people who have been forced to flee their countries because of violence or other persecution on account of their race, religion, political opinion or other reasons under international law.

In US law, the legal definition is someone who is outside the United States, seeking to be admitted, who fits this description:

who is unable or unwilling to return to, and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of, that country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion

Refugees entering the United States have already been vetted, and the United States government has already determined that:

1. They have a credible fear of persecution.
2. They are not a threat to us.
3. They have not persecuted others.

There are about 35-40 million refugees in the world. Only a small fraction are ever offered third-country resettlement. Most years, well under 1% of refugees are resettled at all.

Under Obama, about 74,000 refugees were admitted in 2009. At the time, that was roughly 0.28 % of the world's refugees. Since 1995, most years have been well under 100,000 refugees.

That's on the order of 2% - 4% of all legal immigrants to the United States.

[Bootstrap]

RChallenge is many unfairly used refugee status and are really just immigrants.

If someone is admitted to the U.S. as a refugee, it is because the U.S. government has already decided they meet the legal definition. Even then, the vast majority are not admitted.

I have seen a lot of strongly emotional claims that ignore that basic fact. To me, a lot of the blurring is done by people who are against admitting refugees.

Refugee admissions happen overseas, after careful vetting. It is possible, of course, to enter the United States as an "asylum seeker". Even then, they are judged by the same legal persecution standard, but through a different pathway. An asylum seeker is not a refugee until that status is granted.

Either way, only the U.S. government decides, and the same persecution standards apply.

[Robert]

If someone is admitted to the U.S. as a refugee, it is because the U.S. government has already decided they meet the legal definition. Even then, the vast majority are not admitted.

For 4 years, they were allowed to make that claim, be released into the US and await their hearing. So not all refugees have been declared. Some are waiting. These are the ones that I think most people have issue with.

Are refugees a problem? Yes.

Are they an unsurmountable problem? No.

Part of the issue of letting in vast numbers of refugees, and other immigrants, is large groups are not forced by circumstance to become indoctrinated into the US culture. Many continue the lifestyle and disfunction that their society infused into them. I see this often in our community.

Small scale refugees are a workable problem. Large scale refugees often are not so workable and easy to blend. Many come to a new place, but hold to all the old that created much of the problems they left from.

[Bootstrap]

If someone is admitted to the U.S. as a refugee, it is because the U.S. government has already decided they meet the legal definition. Even then, the vast majority are not admitted.

For 4 years, they were allowed to make that claim, be released into the US and await their hearing. So not all refugees have been declared. Some are waiting. These are the ones that I think most people have issue with.

By definition, people still waiting for their hearings are not refugees. And the real problem is that we have not funded the courts, so it takes years before they can get a hearing.

Part of the issue of letting in vast numbers of refugees, and other immigrants, is large groups are not forced by circumstance to become indoctrinated into the US culture. Many continue the lifestyle and dysfunction that their society infused into them. I see this often in our community.

I don't think the United States has ever let in "vast numbers" of refugees in recent years, not compared to our past or to what other countries have done. Refugees, asylum seekers, and other immigrants are often grouped together in public discussion, but they arrive under very different circumstances and face very different constraints.

I’m also uncomfortable with the idea that “dysfunction” is primarily something refugees bring with them from their cultures. And I think American culture has plenty of dysfunction of its own.

From my experience working closely with refugee families, what often looks like dysfunction is better understood as the result of trauma, displacement, disrupted education, and long periods of uncertainty. They are dealing with a lot. On average, refugees tend to be highly motivated to work, deeply invested in family, and often more religious than their American neighbors. And their children and grandchildren integrate very thoroughly into American society.

Which is what happened with many of our ancestors.

Small scale refugees are a workable problem. Large scale refugees often are not so workable and easy to blend. Many come to a new place, but hold to all the old that created much of the problems they left from.

I think it is very reasonable to ask how many refugees we can reasonably accommodate. Especially since these refugees need help getting started in a new country and culture, and often need help working through the trauma they have experienced.

[Robert]

I’m also uncomfortable with the idea that “dysfunction” is primarily something refugees bring with them from their cultures. And I think American culture has plenty of dysfunction of its own.

From my experience working closely with refugee families, what often looks like dysfunction is better understood as the result of trauma, displacement, disrupted education, and long periods of uncertainty.

Cultural dysfunction. I should have stated that more clearly. Sorry for not being clearer.

I think it is very reasonable to ask how many refugees we can reasonably accommodate.

I suspect many think tanks and dissertations would have a better view of that that I would. I also suspect there would be a wide gap in the numbers between the two sides of thought.

There have been certain cities that have had an overflow of refugees that have struggled (i.e. eating the cats and dogs episode). I know there was a challenge of refugees from Louisiana to Texas after Katrina. Them peoples are crazy from Louisiana. They eat about anything (i.e. eating snakes and gators episode) and way too much spices in the food.

[Bootstrap]

I’m also uncomfortable with the idea that “dysfunction” is primarily something refugees bring with them from their cultures. And I think American culture has plenty of dysfunction of its own.

From my experience working closely with refugee families, what often looks like dysfunction is better understood as the result of trauma, displacement, disrupted education, and long periods of uncertainty.

Cultural dysfunction. I should have stated that more clearly. Sorry for not being clearer.

Many of the Syrian families I’ve worked with embody what used to be considered core American values: strong family loyalty, respect for elders, hospitality, willingness to work hard, and a deep sense of responsibility to one another. In practice, they often demonstrate those values more consistently than many modern Americans do.

I think it is very reasonable to ask how many refugees we can reasonably accommodate.

I suspect many think tanks and dissertations would have a better view of that that I would. I also suspect there would be a wide gap in the numbers between the two sides of thought.

Sure. But it is the right question to ask. And currently, there is almost no serious discussion about that.

There have been certain cities that have had an overflow of refugees that have struggled (i.e. eating the cats and dogs episode). I know there was a challenge of refugees from Louisiana to Texas after Katrina. Them peoples are crazy from Louisiana. They eat about anything (i.e. eating snakes and gators episode) and way too much spices in the food.

You do realize that the "eating cats and dog" episode was pure politics, making up lies about people to get attention for political causes? I think that's a sign of our cultural dysfunction, not theirs. Truth is not what makes things go viral on the Internet. I think Christians should stand up for truth when people are spreading lies in order to trash vulnerable people.

Springfield was doing just fine before national politics turned it into a symbol.

And for the record, the Haitians involved were here under Temporary Protected Status. They were not refugees.

[Robert]

Springfield was doing just fine before national politics turned it into a symbol.

I had heard of some of the struggles there way before the eating cats and dogs thing blew up.

Many of the Syrian families I’ve worked with embody what used to be considered core American values: strong family loyalty, respect for elders, hospitality, willingness to work hard, and a deep sense of responsibility to one another.

I have no doubts about this. We have lost much because of progressive ideology the past 50 years. My concerns are more about how a constitutional republic and the freedoms we experience through ours shape and affect our culture. We are loosing a lot of that in our culture also. Some may be from the infusion of so many immigrants. I guess we could place refugees as a subclass of immigrants. Our society has been based a lot on trust. This is core to a functional republic and free society. Most 3rd world cultures are based on distrust with bribes, theft, and fraudulent behaviors as the norm. I think this is why we see so many acts of fraud in immigrants these days.

I think it is important to let immigrants and refugees in. I know there is a balance to the number. I do not know what that number is. We are loosing a lot of our healthy culture as it is. Adding a lot of immigrants just speeds up that process. In life, a little sugar is not harmful, but loads of it can be very unhealthy. WE need to find the healthy level. A pause may be needed until that balance can be identified.

[Bootstrap]

Springfield was doing just fine before national politics turned it into a symbol.

I had heard of some of the struggles there way before the eating cats and dogs thing blew up.

Many of the Syrian families I’ve worked with embody what used to be considered core American values: strong family loyalty, respect for elders, hospitality, willingness to work hard, and a deep sense of responsibility to one another.

I have no doubts about this. We have lost much because of progressive ideology the past 50 years. My concerns are more about how a constitutional republic and the freedoms we experience through ours shape and affect our culture. We are loosing a lot of that in our culture also. Some may be from the infusion of so many immigrants. I guess we could place refugees as a subclass of immigrants. Our society has been based a lot on trust. This is core to a functional republic and free society. Most 3rd world cultures are based on distrust with bribes, theft, and fraudulent behaviors as the norm. I think this is why we see so many acts of fraud in immigrants these days.

I think it is important to let immigrants and refugees in. I know there is a balance to the number. I do not know what that number is. We are loosing a lot of our healthy culture as it is. Adding a lot of immigrants just speeds up that process. In life, a little sugar is not harmful, but loads of it can be very unhealthy. WE need to find the healthy level. A pause may be needed until that balance can be identified.

I imagine the average politician commits far more fraud than the average immigrant. And that's a much bigger concern - immigrants don’t write the laws, control the budgets, or oversee law enforcement.

I definitely care about the Constitution and the freedoms of a constitutional republic. That’s precisely why I’m alarmed by the way fear and hostility toward immigrants are being used to justify violating those freedoms. Often by people who claim to be defending them. We’re seeing warrantless raids, militarized enforcement, detention camps, denial of due process, collective punishment, and broad suspicion based on origin rather than evidence. I think we are also seeing blatant fraud, corruption, and self-dealing in our own government.

That’s a far more serious threat to American freedom than refugees who are trying to work, raise families, and live peacefully.

[ken_sylvania]

I imagine the average politician commits far more fraud than the average immigrant. And that's a much bigger concern - immigrants don’t write the laws, control the budgets, or oversee law enforcement.

So you imagine awful things about politicians, and Valerie imagines things about immigrants...

Apparently you have no problem with people imagining bad things about other people, as long as they imagine bad things about the same group of people you imagine bad things about?

[Bootstrap]

I imagine the average politician commits far more fraud than the average immigrant. And that's a much bigger concern - immigrants don’t write the laws, control the budgets, or oversee law enforcement.

So you imagine awful things about politicians, and Valerie imagines things about immigrants...

Apparently you have no problem with people imagining bad things about other people, as long as they imagine bad things about the same group of people you imagine bad things about?

Do forum rules allow discussion of documented cases of political fraud by public officials, and how those cases affect governance? That’s what I was talking about. These things are a matter of public record, not imagination or stereotyping.

I avoided going into specifics because I didn’t want to derail the thread or turn it into a broader political debate.

This thread asks whether refugees have been a real problem in the United States. And part of that is reminding ourselves what a refugee is. Also, that not every viral Internet rumor is true. If don't think refugees are the biggest threat to American freedom or our constitutional freedoms. That's what I was responding to.