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Some people seem to believe that we need governments that persecute LGBT because that will make life safer for us as Christians. The Ukraine thread made me wonder - what are the LGBT policies of countries that persecute Christians the most?

Here's a list of the top 10 countries Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus:

1. Afghanistan
2. North Korea
3. Somalia
4. Libya
5. Yemen
6. Eritrea
7. Nigeria
8. Pakistan
9. Iran
10. India

What are their policies on LGBT? On abortion?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:23 am Some people seem to believe that we need governments that persecute LGBT because that will make life safer for us as Christians. The Ukraine thread made me wonder - what are the LGBT policies of countries that persecute Christians the most?

Here's a list of the top 10 countries Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus:

1. Afghanistan
2. North Korea
3. Somalia
4. Libya
5. Yemen
6. Eritrea
7. Nigeria
8. Pakistan
9. Iran
10. India

What are their policies on LGBT? On abortion?

If the basis for opposing what a political institution like Russia is doing in Ukraine is God centered morality, then why not support political institutions that promote and uphold God centered moral issues and even punish those who go against that God centered morality?

This is not my position but I find it inconsistent to use God centered morality to oppose something political and then not use it to support something political that aligns with God centered morality.

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:56 am If the basis for opposing what a political institution like Russia is doing in Ukraine is God centered morality, then why not support political institutions that promote and uphold God centered moral issues and even punish those who go against that God centered morality?

You think I can't be against slaughtering large numbers of innocent people and against gay marriage at the same time? You seem to be saying that. There seems to be some theological reasoning there that I can't quite follow.

In my understanding of two-kingdom theology, Caesar does bear the sword, but that doesn't mean everything Caesar does is right or that Caesar will escape judgement for how he bears the sword. Christians do not bear the sword, but that doesn't mean we won't be judged for applauding and encouraging and aiding Caesar in doing what is wrong.

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:56 am This is not my position but I find it inconsistent to use God centered morality to oppose something political and then not use it to support something political that aligns with God centered morality.

Morality is god-centered. Is there an exception for things that are political? If a politician rapes a woman, is it morally exempt? If a politician sends an army to rape and kill large numbers of people, is it morally exempt? Are genocides morally neutral if conducted by governments, since they are therefore political? Is it wrong to correct a Christian who applauds such a "morally exempt genocide"?

In some of our discussions here, it feels like there are people who would say "yes" to some of these questions. I don't understand the theology behind that. It's not the way I understand two-kingdom theology.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:50 am

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:56 am If the basis for opposing what a political institution like Russia is doing in Ukraine is God centered morality, then why not support political institutions that promote and uphold God centered moral issues and even punish those who go against that God centered morality?

You think I can't be against slaughtering large numbers of innocent people and against gay marriage at the same time? You seem to be saying that.

He may have been referring to the "some people" in the OP, which might not include you. At least that's the way I'm reading it.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:50 am

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:56 am If the basis for opposing what a political institution like Russia is doing in Ukraine is God centered morality, then why not support political institutions that promote and uphold God centered moral issues and even punish those who go against that God centered morality?

You think I can't be against slaughtering large numbers of innocent people and against gay marriage at the same time? You seem to be saying that. There seems to be some theological reasoning there that I can't quite follow.

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote.

Here is what I was responding to:

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:23 am Some people seem to believe that we need governments that persecute LGBT because that will make life safer for us as Christians. The Ukraine thread made me wonder - what are the LGBT policies of countries that persecute Christians the most?

I understood this thread to be in response to what Josh and Nett were saying about LGBT issues in the other thread. Maybe I assumed wrongly that you do not support these anti-Christian countries' policies on LGBT issues. I'm saying that it seems inconsistent not to support a political entity's pro-morality policies on LGBT issues while opposing a political entity's anti-morality policies on war.

Unfortunately, lots of people tangibly vote for corporate/institutional abortion (and other policies) in real time, while claiming they are not. So. Regarding human reasoning, anything’s possible. Eventually, we’ll all be sorted.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:04 pm Regarding staggering loss of innocent human life:

“An estimated 62 million abortions have occurred since Roe v. Wade decision in 1973”
From 1975-2012, the nation saw more than one million abortions each year
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aborti ... roe-v-wade

i won’t deliberate, this topic has been discussed in depth on this forum. there are loads of statistics.
all about efficient+gruesome deliberate premeditated for-profit extermination of human life.

just a reminder ..

Neither Russia nor Ukraine are guiltless when it comes to sins+crimes.

My bugaboo is when Foreign Aid, whether humanitarian, military, intelligence, or other, is (cough) “given” (to any country) with legal strings attached that demand compliance with questionable, unwanted, social engineering EXPERIMENTS to be officially+forever accepted as tho they are literally greater-than God’s Word.

Ukraine is under duress.
Extorting under duress is even worse than in normalcy. Much worse. “Lower than a snake’s belly.”

If my fears are true, the insistence on compliance could delay or ruin opportunity for resolution.
i hate to have such a low opinion of the Left-West. it’s gut-wrenching painful. but i do.

i have seen too much.
yet, what i’ve seen is “nothing” compared with what everyone’s children are now inundated with in gov schools, libraries, activities, sports, social media - they have little or no escape!! this is criminal. this should be criminal. killing young souls.

i implore people to: stop voting for it.
i mean, that’s an important starting place.

ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:46 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:50 am

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:56 am If the basis for opposing what a political institution like Russia is doing in Ukraine is God centered morality, then why not support political institutions that promote and uphold God centered moral issues and even punish those who go against that God centered morality?

You think I can't be against slaughtering large numbers of innocent people and against gay marriage at the same time? You seem to be saying that.

He may have been referring to the "some people" in the OP, which might not include you. At least that's the way I'm reading it.

I was actually referring to anyone who attempts to use NT KOG perspectives as an argument to buttress the side they are taking in political situations.

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:03 pm Here is what I was responding to:

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:23 am Some people seem to believe that we need governments that persecute LGBT because that will make life safer for us as Christians. The Ukraine thread made me wonder - what are the LGBT policies of countries that persecute Christians the most?

I understood this thread to be in response to what Josh and Nett were saying about LGBT issues in the other thread. Maybe I assumed wrongly that you do not support these anti-Christian countries' policies on LGBT issues.

I don't support killing or torturing people because they are gay. I don't think Ukraine has anything to do with LGBT issues, I think that's a fig-leaf offered for the invasion. Even if it were the reason for the invasion, I do not support massive bloodshed out of fear that some day Ukraine might allow gay marriage.

And I suspect that supporting these things does not work out well for religious freedom for Christians in the long run.

I thought that was worth talking out.

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:03 pm I'm saying that it seems inconsistent not to support a political entity's pro-morality policies on LGBT issues while opposing a political entity's anti-morality policies on war.

Again, this feels like a fairly complicated approach to a simple moral question. Gay marriage is sinful. Massive bloodshed is horrible. Why is that hard?

I don't really understand the work the word "political" is doing in these sentences or how that works out in your moral theology or your understanding of two kingdom theology. That's precisely why I asked these questions:

Morality is god-centered. Is there an exception for things that are political? If a politician rapes a woman, is it morally exempt? If a politician sends an army to rape and kill large numbers of people, is it morally exempt? Are genocides morally neutral if conducted by governments, since they are therefore political? Is it wrong to correct a Christian who applauds such a "morally exempt genocide"?

How would you answer these questions? That will help me understand what "political" means in your framework.

.. I think that's a fig-leaf offered for the invasion ..

Is it? i have no idea what-all motivated the invasion - other than MANY folks warning over years about tone-deaf NATO expansion.

my problem is fore-knowing the STRINGS the Left-West demands on any description “aid” to any country.
i described my bugaboo with the Left-West above. i’m ashamed the U.S. has sunk so low.

the wolf in sheep’s clothing.

2 wolves at Ukraine’s door.

Ukraine is under duress.
Extorting under duress is even worse than in normalcy. Much worse. “Lower than a snake’s belly.”

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:10 pm I was actually referring to anyone who attempts to use NT KOG perspectives as an argument to buttress the side they are taking in political situations.

I would hope we would all attempt to use NT KOG perspectives. And not as a fig-leaf for political talking points.

I suspect we can all get better at that by questioning the talking points that fly around the internet, together, and not just with people who tend to use the same talking points. Hence this thread.