Amish gun dealer

[Jazman]

Maybe this belongs in the Anabaptist forum... but saw this in my local paper (may be pay-walled, but maybe the headline is sufficient) One little tidbit in the article mentioned that theoretically Amish can't purchase guns from licensed dealers because they have to produce a photo id... but they're not supposed to be photographed...

So can someone more knowledgeable of the Amish and gun purchasing help me out here? How is there a huge hunting/gun culture among the Amish (at least in my area) if there are these hurdles?

[Ken]

Maybe this belongs in the Anabaptist forum... but saw this in my local paper (may be pay-walled, but maybe the headline is sufficient) One little tidbit in the article mentioned that theoretically Amish can't purchase guns from licensed dealers because they have to produce a photo id... but they're not supposed to be photographed...

So can someone more knowledgeable of the Amish and gun purchasing help me out here? How is there a huge hunting/gun culture among the Amish (at least in my area) if there are these hurdles?

Maybe they purchase through gun shows and private sales where ID checks aren't required? Or maybe they do what this guy was doing and just normally don't get caught. Maybe there is a whole clandestine network of Amish arms dealers It sounds like he was kind of pushing the envelope and just got caught. He must have been selling a lot of guns or got turned in by some disgruntled competitor if he attracted the attention of the ATF.

From the article:

Reuben King declined to say how many guns he had or sold, but that more than 600 — which is what a tipster told LNP — didn’t sound right.

"Didn't sound right?" That's not exactly a denial. I'm sure he knows EXACTLY how many guns he sold. But more than 600 guns is a bit different from selling your old rifle on Craigslist because you got new one.

The Amish do have some specific religious exemptions from certain US laws such as for social security and compulsory schooling. But they aren't exempt from all laws and I think sometimes those boundaries get blurred. This sounds like one of those cases. I don't think there is a compelling religious liberty issue involved with selling firearms without a license.

[temporal1]

Jazman:
.. So can someone more knowledgeable of the Amish and gun purchasing help me out here? ..

You’re not asking for opinions/speculation?

[steve-in-kville]

You beat me to this thread topic. I knew these operations existed in the Lancaster County area. My biggest question would be, where did these guns come from? If he was buying them wholesale (for resale) then he was breaking some laws. If it was used and from auctions and such, I can see his position on the issue.

For the record, it takes an awful lot to get the ATF's attention

[Josh]

Maybe this belongs in the Anabaptist forum... but saw this in my local paper (may be pay-walled, but maybe the headline is sufficient) One little tidbit in the article mentioned that theoretically Amish can't purchase guns from licensed dealers because they have to produce a photo id... but they're not supposed to be photographed...

So can someone more knowledgeable of the Amish and gun purchasing help me out here? How is there a huge hunting/gun culture among the Amish (at least in my area) if there are these hurdles?

Historically, photo ID wasn't required, and people tend to inherit their firearms or buy them in private-party sales.

One thing is for sure: if someone wants to try to reduce gun violence or gun trafficking, the Amish are probably the wrong place to start. Although personally as a Holdeman I could never see myself running or owning a gun dealer. Selling a few old guns privately I know will be used for hunting or other lawful purposes, sure.

[Josh]

You beat me to this thread topic. I knew these operations existed in the Lancaster County area. My biggest question would be, where did these guns come from? If he was buying them wholesale (for resale) then he was breaking some laws. If it was used and from auctions and such, I can see his position on the issue.

For the record, it takes an awful lot to get the ATF's attention

And this case is probably going to get a lot of attention from pro-2nd amendment organisations if anything does go to trial. The right to privately buy and sell arms without reporting to the government is a very key piece of 2nd amendment freedoms; the path to gun confiscation like happened in Australia always starts with banning private sales.

[Ken]

You beat me to this thread topic. I knew these operations existed in the Lancaster County area. My biggest question would be, where did these guns come from? If he was buying them wholesale (for resale) then he was breaking some laws. If it was used and from auctions and such, I can see his position on the issue.

For the record, it takes an awful lot to get the ATF's attention

And this case is probably going to get a lot of attention from pro-2nd amendment organisations if anything does go to trial. The right to privately buy and sell arms without reporting to the government is a very key piece of 2nd amendment freedoms; the path to gun confiscation like happened in Australia always starts with banning private sales.

Selling 600+ guns is not private gun sales. The article doesn't say what kind of weapons he was selling but if it was ordinary bolt-action hunting rifles those retail for perhaps $500 on average for the cheaper brands like Ruger and Savage. Much more for fancier stuff or the military-style weapons popular these days. With a typical 25% markup he would have had sales on the order of $300,000 and profits on the order of $75,000 or more. That's running a business not doing private gun sales between friends.

[Jazman]

Jazman:
.. So can someone more knowledgeable of the Amish and gun purchasing help me out here? ..

You’re not asking for opinions/speculation?

Well I guess not...I believe I'm most interested in the laws/legalize, etc... although I don't really care either way. I'm not a hunter or into the hunting culture that I think many Amish are into. I also don't know all the details of gun purchasing and need for photo ID's etc. The article hints at possible conflict between Amish belief and what this Amishman practiced as it relates to the laws. So I need help with understanding the legalize...

[steve-in-kville]

The non-amish that purchased guns most likely were prohibited by law to own one and knew they couldn't get past the background check. Many years ago, there was a Mennonite guy that was operating much the same... had to know someone who knew someone and be introduced to him. He resold guns at a premium, too.

There is also the strawman purchase route, but shop owners typically pick them out as its a liability to them.

[Ken]

The non-amish that purchased guns most likely were prohibited by law to own one and knew they couldn't get past the background check. Many years ago, there was a Mennonite guy that was operating much the same... had to know someone who knew someone and be introduced to him. He resold guns at a premium, too.

There is also the strawman purchase route, but shop owners typically pick them out as its a liability to them.

That's the thing. There are legal gun shops everywhere. And out here we have massive gun shops like Cabela's. I expect there are the equivalent in PA as well, if not actual Cabela's themselves. It is ridiculously easy to buy guns if you are legally entitled to do so. You don't have to search out some obscure Amish farmer who knows someone who knows someone to do a deal in the back room of his barn.