Dangerous Calling

[undershepherd]

In 2012 Paul Tripp published a book titled. "Dangerous Calling - Confronting the Unique Challenges of Pastoral Ministry".
Ironically the promo blurbs on the back cover of the first edition feature 5 pastors - 3 of which have subsequently been disgraced by significant sin or falling away from the faith. One of those was Josh Harris which is what caught my attention due to the recent news.

In addition to those three disgraced pastors on the cover of the book, (James MacDonald, Josh Harris, Tullian Tchividjian) there have been a rash of others in the past couple years such as Mark Driscoll, Bill Hybels, Perry Noble, Darrin Patrick, Rob Bell, Andy Savage, and the list could go on and on. These are just some of the more well known ones in the evangelical world. There have been numerous scandals in the Catholic world and then we could go back to the Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, and other scandals of earlier times plus thousands of lessor known pastors whose failures didn't make the news but who did great damage to their churches and families.

And while it might be easy for us to point our fingers at the mega churches and other groups we in the Mennonite world seem to have our own share of these problems.

My question is, what is the problem? Why? What can we do to prevent it?

[Judas Maccabeus]

In 2012 Paul Tripp published a book titled. "Dangerous Calling - Confronting the Unique Challenges of Pastoral Ministry".
Ironically the promo blurbs on the back cover of the first edition feature 5 pastors - 3 of which have subsequently been disgraced by significant sin or falling away from the faith. One of those was Josh Harris which is what caught my attention due to the recent news.

In addition to those three disgraced pastors on the cover of the book, (James MacDonald, Josh Harris, Tullian Tchividjian) there have been a rash of others in the past couple years such as Mark Driscoll, Bill Hybels, Perry Noble, Darrin Patrick, Rob Bell, Andy Savage, and the list could go on and on. These are just some of the more well known ones in the evangelical world. There have been numerous scandals in the Catholic world and then we could go back to the Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, and other scandals of earlier times plus thousands of lessor known pastors whose failures didn't make the news but who did great damage to their churches and families.

And while it might be easy for us to point our fingers at the mega churches and other groups we in the Mennonite world seem to have our own share of these problems.

My question is, what is the problem? Why? What can we do to prevent it?

Most of them were self selected. You choose to be a pastor by getting the training, and not by selection by either nomination or the lot. Since all of these were successful, to be so, they generally have a charismatic personality, which tends to be sociopathic as well. There is money in preaching in some circles, and frequently little accountability. People are attracted to the "aura" of success, and with that the opportunity to exploit that.

I would say, while we do have them, the fact that many, maybe most of out pastors are essentially unpaid, causes those who seek money to look elsewhere.

I far prefer our model.

J.M.

[temporal1]

Proverbs 3:4-6
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-5.htm

..
4 Then you will find favor and high regard in the sight of God and man.

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.…

human reasoning fails.
scriptures tell us to pray for our leaders, because they need it.

[Szdfan]

What scandal was Rob Bell in? My understanding was that he stepped down due to fallout from his book, “Love Wins.” I wouldn’t put that in the same category as Driscoll or Hybels.

[Judas Maccabeus]

What scandal was Rob Bell in? My understanding was that he stepped down due to fallout from his book, “Love Wins.” I wouldn’t put that in the same category as Driscoll or Hybels.

Yeah, Rob Bell simply opened doctrinal issues that placed him outside of the limits of evangelical Christianity. My guess is you don’ sell many books if what you write is not unique.

J.M.

[Neto]

In the context of how a person is called to a ministry, if a personal "call", one not originating from a congregational body is being "self appointed", then the Apostle Paul was such a case. In the Mennonite context in which I grew up (Mennonite Brethren) a personal call from God is also recognized as a valid way through which a man may receive the unction of the pastoral ministry. (This was written into the original document of formation in 1860.) Having now lived for a couple of decades in the setting where normally only the voice of the congregation is recognized as a true calling, I have come to see the advantages and disadvantages of both. The lack of formal training is sometimes readily apparent. "Church politics" also is at work in too many cases, and there are also ways for a man to "put himself forward" in ways which, though sometimes valid, can also be misused.
I think that a pastor has a target on his back, and the more "successful" he becomes, the more he comes under attack for pride. Any ministry position that results in some people putting them on a pedestal works this way, I think. I freely admit that missionaries face the same thing. People ooo & aah about the "great sacrifices" you are making, and how "I could never do that". Anything like this can become a trap, one that drags the ministry worker into pride or other sin.

[Valerie]

In the context of how a person is called to a ministry, if a personal "call", one not originating from a congregational body is being "self appointed", then the Apostle Paul was such a case. In the Mennonite context in which I grew up (Mennonite Brethren) a personal call from God is also recognized as a valid way through which a man may receive the unction of the pastoral ministry. (This was written into the original document of formation in 1860.) Having now lived for a couple of decades in the setting where normally only the voice of the congregation is recognized as a true calling, I have come to see the advantages and disadvantages of both. The lack of formal training is sometimes readily apparent. "Church politics" also is at work in too many cases, and there are also ways for a man to "put himself forward" in ways which, though sometimes valid, can also be misused.
I think that a pastor has a target on his back, and the more "successful" he becomes, the more he comes under attack for pride. Any ministry position that results in some people putting them on a pedestal works this way, I think. I freely admit that missionaries face the same thing. People ooo & aah about the "great sacrifices" you are making, and how "I could never do that". Anything like this can become a trap, one that drags the ministry worker into pride or other sin.

Yes.
Satan goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Will he try to 'take down' someone who is of no value to the kingdom? Someone whose ineffective? Someone who God is using to bring many to Him? OF course he would!

I'm baffled by the assumption that it is wrong for a pastor to get paid because Scripture teaches they should- when did this change? I suppose I can see that the ancient churches, the clergy as in the priest receive their income as a priest because it is a full time ministry- I would not assume because one gets paid, that this is sin or this will automatically set them up for failure. Having known Amish/former Amish I have heard of many Bishops that have failed (they are unpaid) and good ones as well.

Satan tries to tempt any and all Christians. Period. Knowing his schemes, being aware of his tactics- will make us take heed to our own souls- those in the 'limelight' so to speak in Christianity need to be prayed for because of course the enemy would go after them in a powerful way to hurt the Church and the witness of the Church.

[MaxPC]

In 2012 Paul Tripp published a book titled. "Dangerous Calling - Confronting the Unique Challenges of Pastoral Ministry".
Ironically the promo blurbs on the back cover of the first edition feature 5 pastors - 3 of which have subsequently been disgraced by significant sin or falling away from the faith. One of those was Josh Harris which is what caught my attention due to the recent news.

In addition to those three disgraced pastors on the cover of the book, (James MacDonald, Josh Harris, Tullian Tchividjian) there have been a rash of others in the past couple years such as Mark Driscoll, Bill Hybels, Perry Noble, Darrin Patrick, Rob Bell, Andy Savage, and the list could go on and on. These are just some of the more well known ones in the evangelical world. There have been numerous scandals in the Catholic world and then we could go back to the Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, and other scandals of earlier times plus thousands of lessor known pastors whose failures didn't make the news but who did great damage to their churches and families.

And while it might be easy for us to point our fingers at the mega churches and other groups we in the Mennonite world seem to have our own share of these problems.

My question is, what is the problem? Why? What can we do to prevent it?

Most of them were self selected. You choose to be a pastor by getting the training, and not by selection by either nomination or the lot. Since all of these were successful, to be so, they generally have a charismatic personality, which tends to be sociopathic as well. There is money in preaching in some circles, and frequently little accountability. People are attracted to the "aura" of success, and with that the opportunity to exploit that.

I would say, while we do have them, the fact that many, maybe most of out pastors are essentially unpaid, causes those who seek money to look elsewhere.

I far prefer our model.

J.M.

Great topic, undershepherd! This is one that would take several books to cover in my opinion: perhaps a four volume set just for Christianity alone.

To be clear, it is not the fault of Christianity and its teachings that we see this rise and fall of "personality" pastors. We see similar situations in other religions as well.

All of these pastors have one thing in common: celebrity. Whether it is from book authorship, charismatic preaching styles, or simply large congregations, they are all celebrities in their circles (fwiw, I did not know who Joshua Harris was until the recent threads on Mennonet). 'Being popular' is one of those human desires that drives us. Some say it derives from a survival behavior but I won't go into that particular debate which is too far ranging for a forum of this structure.

When a pastor becomes popular he needs true brothers in Christ to keep him grounded and humble. I would hazard a guess that none of these pastors had tbiC when they fell. Instead they had sycophants/yes-men who fed the vanity of these pastors. The Biblical concept of accountability is truly an important one.

I like to look at both positives and negatives. When looking at the negative role models and what was done wrong, I also look at the positive role models and what was done to keep them on the straight path. Two come to mind for me:
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, the television Bishop: he was very popular about 50 years ago. The celebrity starting inflating his vanity so Sheen's superior told him to leave the show and go on a retreat from the limelight for several years. It worked, Sheen found his anchor in Christ again. Now he is up for canonization.

Billy Graham: He always kept tbiCs instead of yes-men close to himself to keep himself grounded in Christ and good advice. He never met a woman in private without his wife or other trusted woman like his daughter present. He knew the dangers of "no boundaries".

What are the successful strategies to keep good men from falling prey to the satanic trap of vanity, greed and lust?

[Wade]

In the context of how a person is called to a ministry, if a personal "call", one not originating from a congregational body is being "self appointed", then the Apostle Paul was such a case. In the Mennonite context in which I grew up (Mennonite Brethren) a personal call from God is also recognized as a valid way through which a man may receive the unction of the pastoral ministry. (This was written into the original document of formation in 1860.) Having now lived for a couple of decades in the setting where normally only the voice of the congregation is recognized as a true calling, I have come to see the advantages and disadvantages of both. The lack of formal training is sometimes readily apparent. "Church politics" also is at work in too many cases, and there are also ways for a man to "put himself forward" in ways which, though sometimes valid, can also be misused.
I think that a pastor has a target on his back, and the more "successful" he becomes, the more he comes under attack for pride. Any ministry position that results in some people putting them on a pedestal works this way, I think. I freely admit that missionaries face the same thing. People ooo & aah about the "great sacrifices" you are making, and how "I could never do that". Anything like this can become a trap, one that drags the ministry worker into pride or other sin.

Yes.
Satan goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Will he try to 'take down' someone who is of no value to the kingdom? Someone whose ineffective? Someone who God is using to bring many to Him? OF course he would!

I'm baffled by the assumption that it is wrong for a pastor to get paid because Scripture teaches they should- when did this change? I suppose I can see that the ancient churches, the clergy as in the priest receive their income as a priest because it is a full time ministry- I would not assume because one gets paid, that this is sin or this will automatically set them up for failure. Having known Amish/former Amish I have heard of many Bishops that have failed (they are unpaid) and good ones as well.

Satan tries to tempt any and all Christians. Period. Knowing his schemes, being aware of his tactics- will make us take heed to our own souls- those in the 'limelight' so to speak in Christianity need to be prayed for because of course the enemy would go after them in a powerful way to hurt the Church and the witness of the Church.

Since Christ:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

And Paul mentions about not being paid too.

[ken_sylvania]

In the context of how a person is called to a ministry, if a personal "call", one not originating from a congregational body is being "self appointed", then the Apostle Paul was such a case. In the Mennonite context in which I grew up (Mennonite Brethren) a personal call from God is also recognized as a valid way through which a man may receive the unction of the pastoral ministry. (This was written into the original document of formation in 1860.) Having now lived for a couple of decades in the setting where normally only the voice of the congregation is recognized as a true calling, I have come to see the advantages and disadvantages of both. The lack of formal training is sometimes readily apparent. "Church politics" also is at work in too many cases, and there are also ways for a man to "put himself forward" in ways which, though sometimes valid, can also be misused.
I think that a pastor has a target on his back, and the more "successful" he becomes, the more he comes under attack for pride. Any ministry position that results in some people putting them on a pedestal works this way, I think. I freely admit that missionaries face the same thing. People ooo & aah about the "great sacrifices" you are making, and how "I could never do that". Anything like this can become a trap, one that drags the ministry worker into pride or other sin.

Would you care to elaborate a bit more on the Apostle Paul's calling? In what ways did he act on his personal call prior to being commissioned by the brotherhood?