Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

Well, that's what Putin claims. And therefore, Putin claims the right to own Ukraine. And to own several other countries in the region. Do you think Russian imperialism is a virtue? I cannot think of any scenario where the United States would have the kind of control over Ukraine that Putin insists on.

Can you think of any other countries though?

Georgia, Belorus, Ukraine, for starters. Moldova. But his ambitions are clearly greater than that if you believe what he says. Did you read Putin's speech? What do you make of this line:

It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the C.P.S.U. leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies. The collapse of the historical Russia known as the U.S.S.R. is on their conscience.

Putin equates "historical Russia" with "the U.S.S.R", and bemoans "the disintegration of our united country". In this speech, Russian imperialistic nationalism is everywhere, but if other countries want to exist independently, he calls them "radicals and nationalists".

I think it's helpful to read annotated versions of this speech that supply background most Westerners may be missing. Here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/worl ... raine.html

Again, I don't know what the nations of this world should do. But "just let him have Crimea and it will all go away" didn't seem to work.

[nett]

Well, that's what Putin claims. And therefore, Putin claims the right to own Ukraine. And to own several other countries in the region. Do you think Russian imperialism is a virtue? I cannot think of any scenario where the United States would have the kind of control over Ukraine that Putin insists on.

Can you think of any other countries though?

Georgia, Belorus, Ukraine, for starters. Moldova. But his ambitions are clearly greater than that if you believe what he says. Did you read Putin's speech? What do you make of this line:

It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the C.P.S.U. leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies. The collapse of the historical Russia known as the U.S.S.R. is on their conscience.

Putin equates "historical Russia" with "the U.S.S.R", and bemoans "the disintegration of our united country". In this speech, Russian imperialistic nationalism is everywhere, but if other countries want to exist independently, he calls them "radicals and nationalists".

I think it's helpful to read annotated versions of this speech that supply background most Westerners may be missing. Here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/worl ... raine.html

I think you misunderstood. Are there any countries that the US demands influence over, whether explicitly, or implicitly?

The bolsheviks and the CPSU leadership did make mistakes leading to the disintegration of the USSR. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I don't see any moral difference between Russia's demands for The Ukraine, and CIA color revolutions. They are both forms of imperialism.

[Neto]

Well, that's what Putin claims. And therefore, Putin claims the right to own Ukraine. And to own several other countries in the region. Do you think Russian imperialism is a virtue? I cannot think of any scenario where the United States would have the kind of control over Ukraine that Putin insists on.

Can you think of any other countries though?

Georgia, Belorus, Ukraine, for starters. Moldova. But his ambitions are clearly greater than that if you believe what he says. Did you read Putin's speech? What do you make of this line:

It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the C.P.S.U. leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies. The collapse of the historical Russia known as the U.S.S.R. is on their conscience.

Putin equates "historical Russia" with "the U.S.S.R", and bemoans "the disintegration of our united country". In this speech, Russian imperialistic nationalism is everywhere, but if other countries want to exist independently, he calls them "radicals and nationalists".

I think it's helpful to read annotated versions of this speech that supply background most Westerners may be missing. Here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/worl ... raine.html

Again, I don't know what the nations of this world should do. But "just let him have Crimea and it will all go away" didn't seem to work.

Many of these FSU countries floundered to varying degrees when, like a child who had been under the tight and excessive control of a parent, suddenly found themselves a "free agent", with the possibility of self-control and self determination. Russia also had that faze (around 7 years, if I recall correctly), but unfortunately it failed due to internal corruption, and it slipped back into autocratic control. And yes, Ukraine has made a lot of mistakes as well. But other than their brief bid for freedom in 1918 - 1920, they've had little opportunity for self-governance until relatively recent years.

[temporal1]

I don't see any moral difference between Russia's demands for The Ukraine, and CIA color revolutions.
They are both forms of imperialism.

i wrote:
i don’t see, “Russia will refuse to recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty.”
not here, nor in any other report on the talks. (the talks are private. not all details are known.)

It’s important to avoid Quixote-ish flamboyant imaginings. (This is a common ditch on this forum.)

Where do you see Russia demanding the Ukraine?

(The military invasion certainly implies disrespect of borders.) But, from what’s reported, talks are about a neutral Ukraine.
This mismatch suggests this now-raging battle could have been avoided, the West refused to listen. Now+over years.

The West promising+delivering massive military and economic support has escalated (everything).
Of course the West doesn’t want to own any responsibility. That doesn’t mean their hands are clean.
In the U.S., no matter what, biden must be deemed the wise+fearless leader. (just watch.)

This is not a battle between innocents, or between one innocent against evil. (Being weaker does not mean innocent.)

Any hope of diplomacy must soberly consider both sides/all sides.
Not that there’s much indication the West, or its cheerleaders, are interested in diplomacy.

Zelensky talking big to Putin, fully counting on the West, is .. shaky, at best. He is in an untenable position.

If ever there was a time to be focused+pragmatic, this is one.
Praying for talks, and leaders.

[nett]

I don't see any moral difference between Russia's demands for The Ukraine, and CIA color revolutions.
They are both forms of imperialism.

i wrote:
i don’t see, “Russia will refuse to recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty.”
not here, nor in any other report on the talks. (the talks are private. not all details are known.)

It’s important to avoid Quixote-ish flamboyant imaginings. (This is a common ditch on this forum.)

Where do you see Russia demanding the Ukraine?

(The military invasion certainly implies disrespect of borders.) But, from what’s reported, talks are about a neutral Ukraine.
This mismatch suggests this now-raging battle could have been avoided, the West refused to listen. Now+over years.

The West promising+delivering massive military and economic support has escalated (everything).
Of course the West doesn’t want to own any responsibility. That doesn’t mean their hands are clean.
In the U.S., no matter what, biden must be deemed the wise+fearless leader. (just watch.)

This is not a battle between innocents, or between one innocent against evil. (Being weaker does not mean innocent.)

Any hope of diplomacy must soberly consider both sides/all sides.
Not that there’s much indication the West, or its cheerleaders, are interested in diplomacy.

Zelensky talking big to Putin, fully counting on the West, is .. shaky, at best. He is in an untenable position.

If ever there was a time to be focused+pragmatic, this is one.
Praying for talks, and leaders.

I'm inclined to agree, but I'm trying to establish some common ground.

I have a hard time disagreeing with anything Putin has said about the west, so far. I am still very cautious and skeptical.

[mike]

One tweet out of a thread that captures where I think the war is at this point.

[mike]

Aftermath of a missile attack on a shopping mall in Kyiv

[temporal1]

nett:
I have a hard time disagreeing with anything Putin has said about the west, so far.
I am still very cautious and skeptical.

This speaks to the importance of diplomacy, BOTH/all sides are intensely skeptical, i don’t see any way around that.
It will require time and ONGOING diplomacy to achieve any level mutual trust.

Short of that, it’s a simple matter of primitive warfare, possibly mixed with a charade of attempted diplomacy (which is probably more a case of justification for more warfare than sincere diplomacy). That is, what is happening now.

Thankfully, there are some authentic knowledgeable experienced diplomats behind the scenes (pushed aside,
“‘cause, ain’t nobody got time for that!”) (diplomats in Israel, India, Harvard, quoted here, rejected here.)

Seriously, beware the ditches on this forum. They come up with every “hot” topic that appears. Like the sun rising in the east.
This is one time when focus+pragmatism are needed. To end IRL, in real time suffering in Ukraine.

The world does not need another 20 year hell hole in Ukraine.

[Josh]

Does anyone have any commentary on Zelensky outlawing opposition political parties?

[Ken]

Does anyone have any commentary on Zelensky outlawing opposition political parties?

Not all opposition parties. Just the Russian-funded ones.