Minimum wage: how much is too much?

[Neto]

So, is that $10k realistic or just an example? This has me strangely curious... I never knew rates for this stuff.

I don't know anything about it other than from this one case. I was very unbelieving when he first told us that he didn't know that it was illegal to come into the States that way, but after talking with him more, and hearing his background, I came to believe that he really didn't know. (He was from the "interior" in North West Brazil, in the same state where we lived most of our years there. It's a little town along the only highway that connects our part of Brazil with the southern part of the country. That road was only built in 1980, and was just a dirt road for a long time after that. So think "way back in" as the definition for "interior".)

[steve-in-kville]

The whole immigration/illegal aliens/refugees thing is disgusting.
U.S. career politicians have been kicking the can down the road since the 1950’s, at least.

Shameless politics, both parties.
POOR performance.

Yes, it is. And not just human trafficking.

In the past few months I had watched a film on how the US government had their hands in the drug trade in the 80's. And how they specifically marketed cocaine to black communities. All around the time that the Reagan's were launching the war on drugs. I was pretty disgusted.

[appleman2006]

I will say this/ If you are going to have a minimum wage it should at the very least not raise faster than inflation.
A few years ago I did a quick check and based on their earliest figures I could find of minimum wage laws in 1963 if rates would have only increased at the average rate of inflation they would be under 9 dollars today. I believe ours are at #14.25 right now. Maybe $14.50, People are totally shocked when presented with that fact because that is now what they are being told.

I'm not sure how you calculated inflation? I said something to my dad when I bought my first house about trying to make ends meet and he saia to quit my whining. Then I asked my dad what was his wage was when he started working at the sawmill in the early 80's. He said $21/hr. That is the same as I was making in the sawmill when I bought my first house too. Then I asked him how much gas was then - under half the price. Then I asked why his house was a third of the price of mine. Then I asked how much milk was. All of a sudden he put his head down realizing he had it really really easy during his time.

What was also interesting is then I went and talked to my grandpa and what I found was that even at $0.25/hr when he started working his house price was about 6 times less in relation to wage as compared to us around 2006. But housing prices have more than doubled or tripled here since then and wages have not kept any close pace whatsoever.

These small inflation numbers are complete and utter rubbish.

It was a couple years back when I did the calculation and if I am not mistaken I used a 1 percent or just slightly higher compounded rate which I believe was at that point sited as the average rate of inflation since 1960.

Obviously situations vary based on job and housing availability in a given area as well as a whole bunch of other factors. It is always possible to find scenarios both past and present that were both better and worse than your own. Even Jesus more or less stated that, when he said that the poor would always be with us.
The example you gave of your father earning 21 dollars in the early eighties for example, is an example of something that was certainly out of the ordinary. That was a very very good wage for that time. In our area heavy equipment operators were earning as little as 7 dollars an hour as late as 1987.
Keep in mind that in the early 80's interest rates were as high as 20 percent or more as compared to 2 or 3 percent today.
I am not saying that things are easy today. I do not think things have ever been easy particularly for those that fall in the lower half of the middle class in our countries. There have always been those that somehow could afford to buy homes on a fairly meagre income and others that seemingly could not afford it on a fairly good income and the reasons for this are too many to state here.
It is a fact that over the past 100 years almost without exception the earlier one could buy a home the better off financially one was off in the future. As I said I know of a few exceptions to this both in the early 80's when interest rates soared and in the US around 1908.
But generally speaking people do have it better here in NA today then at any other place or time in history. We have more resources and comforts and leisure than ever before.
Please understand that if this is not your experience it does not make you a bad or lazy person. There can be very legitimate reasons why one may find themselves outside of this group.
The old adage is still true that it is not so much what you make as it is what you save or spend. My advice to young people is this. Work hard while you are young and healthy. Find a job you are good at and stick to it if at all possible. Resist the temptation to spend on things you do not really need and as soon as possible make a down payment on a property, If you are even a little bit of a handy person you are miles ahead of the game.
It is still possible to make a good living. I expect my children to as a rule be more financially successful than I was and they will do it without my financial help.

I just want to give this example yet as it regards to immigrants. This is not to discourage anyone if it has not been your experience but rather to encourage you to see the many good opportunities that are out there. I could give you a long list of personal examples of employees of ours that came to this county some as late as their early 40's. Most of them came with nothing. And over the years they bought cars and houses and then bought larger houses and some of them are now comfortably retired. They did this never earning anything close to what would be considered a high wage. But they worked hard and long hours. They saved and spent wisely at least in the early years. Often they did this with somewhat of a language barrier.

Many of these people simply cannot fathom the ingratitude and level of complaining that they see among Canadians who have been here for many generations. They just shake their head in disbelief.

The fact still remains that if you are struggling financially in this country even through no direct fault of your own you would probably be dead in many countries.

There are many reasons for poverty in this country not the least of which is the breakdown of communities and families. We are called to be compassionate and help. Sometimes that help involves giving a fish. More often it is better served by teaching one to fish.

[Ken]

Regarding wage growth and inflation. This is what the numbers look like since 1964. Essentially real wage growth has been completely flat over the past 50+ years

[mike]

Regarding wage growth and inflation. This is what the numbers look like since 1964. Essentially real wage growth has been completely flat over the past 50+ years

It would be interesting to know how standard of living has changed for someone earning the same real wage during that period.

[RZehr]

Regarding wage growth and inflation. This is what the numbers look like since 1964. Essentially real wage growth has been completely flat over the past 50+ years

Who or what, is to say that it should increase or decrease? I mean, if someone is working less hard, than someone in the past, shouldn’t they get paid the same? Today’s standard of living is way higher.
Or was the person in the past being paid too much or not enough?
And if the person doing the same work today is getting paid more than the person in the past, should he pay reparations?

I’m for increasing real income, and better standards of living. I just find it really subjective to pinpoint “fairness” and use that to determine what income should be. I think the Christian employer way would look more like, “pay as much as you can, be generous”.

It is for good reason Jesus didn’t focus on fairness, but instead sacrifice and forbearance and love.

[ken_sylvania]

Regarding wage growth and inflation. This is what the numbers look like since 1964. Essentially real wage growth has been completely flat over the past 50+ years

It would be interesting to know how standard of living has changed for someone earning the same real wage during that period.

For instance, purchasing power to buy a washing machine - used to be X number of dollars would buy a washing machine that used plenty of water and got the clothes clean. Now today Y number of dollars will buy a washing machine that sings and beeps and has flashy lights but that swishes the dirty water around with the clothes and gets some of the dirt off.

Even the least expensive new car these days will have seatbelts, airbags, antilock brakes, etc - how is this figured into inflation.

The "telephone" purchased with today's wages will do a lot that yester-year's telephones never did.

[Signtist]

Recent migrants often work in near slavery. They have to send almost all of their money back to repay these loans, and employers know they can impose very bad conditions and these employees won’t quit. They can’t.

That’s why I think focusing on present day slavery is a much better idea than focusing on past slavery.

Don't get Appleman started on this topic. He has employed many immigrants and I doubt he will agree with you. But his probably came to work without having to pay off a handler.

[Ken]

Regarding wage growth and inflation. This is what the numbers look like since 1964. Essentially real wage growth has been completely flat over the past 50+ years

It would be interesting to know how standard of living has changed for someone earning the same real wage during that period.

For instance, purchasing power to buy a washing machine - used to be X number of dollars would buy a washing machine that used plenty of water and got the clothes clean. Now today Y number of dollars will buy a washing machine that sings and beeps and has flashy lights but that swishes the dirty water around with the clothes and gets some of the dirt off.

Even the least expensive new car these days will have seatbelts, airbags, antilock brakes, etc - how is this figured into inflation.

The "telephone" purchased with today's wages will do a lot that yester-year's telephones never did.

I think for these kinds of analyses, purchasing power is the average purchasing power or rate of inflation. Obviously different goods and services inflate at different rates.

If we are comparing to the 1960s, then education, health care, and houses have inflated tremendously over that time.

By contrast, food, clothing, electronics (TVs etc.) airfare, etc. have gone down over time. Everyone's personal spending is different so everyone's purchasing power is different. If you are trying to buy a house and send 3 kids to college then the 2020s probably look pretty horrible. If you are living a modest single life in an apartment and your costs are food, clothing, and travel then the 2020s probably look pretty good compared to the 1960s.

[Neto]

There are lots of things that are now considered essentials that did not even exist in the 60's, at least for many people. In 1960 (when I was 5) we had just gotten in-door plumbing, with a bath tub and the works. We had no telephone, except an old crank one that only rang at my grandparents' home, a quarter mile away. Just that year we became a 2 car family, and mom got her driver's license. No more grocery shopping in the evenings, because that was the only time Dad was home, to get us to town. We also (of course) had no air conditioning, in either the house of the car. First family car w/ AC was after I left home for college (1974) - the house didn't have it until a couple of decades later. And this is in Oklahoma.

Now most people consider having internet to be essential. And everyone has their own cell phone, too. A freezer. A clothes dryer. And maybe a 4-wheeler, a boat or ski-doo, or a snow mobile. Then there's exercise machines to make up for lack of physical work.