Who speaks for the black community?

[joshuabgood]

Gary...one other thing. It really bothers people of color when we play the two kingdom card if you will, dont take that too seriously, with regard to not speaking publicly to government on others peoples issues, but we are super organized about appealing our issues. Vincent Harding, a black Mennonite minister, was really bothered by that. The Menno church organized and appealed for special consideration from the Feds during WW2, but wouldn't speak to the feds about Civil Rights. It galled him.

Today meetings have been happening in the last couple years with Menno churches and authorities around the Corona Virus, sex abuse handling and church teaming with authorities, etc. Where are the meetings about issues on behalf of others?

I don't think I'm playing the two kingdom card with the black community but rather with you - what we two kingdom adherents can do.

Ok. I dont think the two kingdom card means we can't speak truth to power, like John the Baptist did, or Jesus did to the Sanhedrin folks, or in the temple. Instead, I think it behooves us to speak truth to power.

[GaryK]

Gary...one other thing. It really bothers people of color when we play the two kingdom card if you will, dont take that too seriously, with regard to not speaking publicly to government on others peoples issues, but we are super organized about appealing our issues. Vincent Harding, a black Mennonite minister, was really bothered by that. The Menno church organized and appealed for special consideration from the Feds during WW2, but wouldn't speak to the feds about Civil Rights. It galled him.

Today meetings have been happening in the last couple years with Menno churches and authorities around the Corona Virus, sex abuse handling and church teaming with authorities, etc. Where are the meetings about issues on behalf of others?

I don't think I'm playing the two kingdom card with the black community but rather with you - what we two kingdom adherents can do.

Ok. I dont think the two kingdom card means we can't speak truth to power, like John the Baptist did, or Jesus did to the Sanhedrin folks, or in the temple. Instead, I think it behooves us to speak truth to power.

Neither do I. But was that the primary focus of the early church or was it the advancement of Christ's Kingdom?

[GaryK]

Lastly, though I am not a proponent of coerced socialism, I am not convinced that played the significant role in the challenges faced by the Black community.

I ask this sincerely Josh - is this another way of saying you don't believe the experiences of people like Elder and others who have seen this play out within their lifetime within the black community?

Gary, I would lean on the vast vast majority of our black brothers and sisters in Christ to inform my understanding of the primary causes of the challenges faced by the black community. As I mentioned earlier, the black conservative voice, Elder, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Obama, Washington, Sowell, etc I respect. In our context it is appropriate to let them speak to and challenge their communities. The truth is...the vast vast majority of the Black community, including our fellow Kingdom citizens in Christ, are not in the same place as Larry Elder.

I'm wondering how Jesus would respond to your assertion that His adherents should not be involved in presenting His Kingdom's values to the Black community?

[RZehr]

I would add, I am much more bothered by corporate welfare and bailouts, ag subsidies, etc, than I am by direct relief. And wars and war profiteering...which has been much more harmful also. And the permanent garrison state...

Lastly, though I am not a proponent of coerced socialism, I am not convinced that played the significant role in the challenges faced by the
Black community.

Condemnation of corporate bailouts has to be coming from a sense of civic responsibility, right? I think the criticism here on MN on personal welfare is coming more from the damage to individual persons or families, spiritually speaking.
I don’t see much spiritual or family damage being done with corporate bailouts.

[Neto]

So your solution is...MORE disapproval? Make their lives harder than they already are?

It is not even remotely fair to respond like that. I think that from the part of my post that you omitted it is clear that I was talking about changed attitudes of those caught in it, not anything at all to do with any outside attitude.

You are right. That was unfair of me.

... the problem of marriage in the black community ... is probably the one thing that is neither our place nor within our power to do anything about. When the things that we do have the ability and responsibility to change, like pervasive discrimination and inequity, are just so much more difficult and complicated to even address.

Thank you for your reply.

But I respectfully disagree with the second part. And I hope that my edit is not misrepresenting your statement.

Believing, as I do, that we cannot really do anything to affect real change for anyone at all (no matter their 'race' or economic status) except through personal involvement at the individual level (one-on-one interaction), I think that the first thing here is the only thing we CAN do anything about, and not the second, at least not at the political level. (Incidentally, this is also the way I was taught in Applied Anthropology, as a 'Christian Cultural Change Agent'.) There was a time when I would have eagerly participated in political action, such as peaceful protest, but I am convinced that while that may change the situation legally, it will not affect the persons involved on the real personal level. (Both for the racist, and the victim of racism, or for the perpetrators and victims of class-prejudice.) Maybe it's just that my generation tried so hard to do it on the political level, and basically failed. (I will admit, that according to a young black woman - probably actually a teenager - with whom I talked in a chance conversation in a motel breakfast room, there WERE some good results of those efforts. She saw it that way, but I tend not to be able to see it.) This is what I mean by change from the inside.

And speaking of Culture Change Theory, the change agent's first task is to find and elicit the help of an in-culture person, the one who will be the 'Culture Change Innovator'. Those of you who have current and close contacts within the sectors of society in which you wish to see change will know some people like this already. I pray the LORD's blessing on them, and on you, as you seek to help them in any way possible. I am isolated from all of this in Holmes County. The little I can do is just be my friendly Okie self to people of all 'races' and economic classes. I don't have regular contact with any Blacks, but I have in the past been sort of 'called out' by some of my neighbors here for making friends with a guy here who is seen as a sort of vagrant, although he is no such thing.

But specifically in respect to racial interaction issues, I suppose my responsibility is more in the area of trying to see change on the part of 'racists' with whom I come in contact (and unfortunately there are many in this area who have that tendency).

[MaxPC]

Gary, I would lean on the vast vast majority of our black brothers and sisters in Christ to inform my understanding of the primary causes of the challenges faced by the black community.

So are you going to get up from your computer, go out personally among every single African American community in America and Canada; gather up their opinions honestly and without interpretation and record that data? Then have it checked and rechecked for researcher bias? Or are you just going to continue to preach at everyone by regurgitating the viewpoints of your favorite news sources and authors?

The first method will take roughly ten years if you do it correctly in order to get the face to face opinions.

The second is no better than what the mass media is trying to tell us to think and just makes you their pawn. We are called to imitate Jesus. What would Jesus do?

[joshuabgood]

I would add, I am much more bothered by corporate welfare and bailouts, ag subsidies, etc, than I am by direct relief. And wars and war profiteering...which has been much more harmful also. And the permanent garrison state...

Lastly, though I am not a proponent of coerced socialism, I am not convinced that played the significant role in the challenges faced by the
Black community.

Condemnation of corporate bailouts has to be coming from a sense of civic responsibility, right? I think the criticism here on MN on personal welfare is coming more from the damage to individual persons or families, spiritually speaking.
I don’t see much spiritual or family damage being done with corporate bailouts.

No I don't condemn corporate bailouts, generally I think they lack utility or common good. That is all.

[joshuabgood]

I ask this sincerely Josh - is this another way of saying you don't believe the experiences of people like Elder and others who have seen this play out within their lifetime within the black community?

Gary, I would lean on the vast vast majority of our black brothers and sisters in Christ to inform my understanding of the primary causes of the challenges faced by the black community. As I mentioned earlier, the black conservative voice, Elder, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Obama, Washington, Sowell, etc I respect. In our context it is appropriate to let them speak to and challenge their communities. The truth is...the vast vast majority of the Black community, including our fellow Kingdom citizens in Christ, are not in the same place as Larry Elder.

I'm wondering how Jesus would respond to your assertion that His adherents should not be involved in presenting His Kingdom's values to the Black community?

I would say it this way, the core value is loving God and the next is loving your neighbor. We need to seek to understand and work for reconciliation prior to being in spot to pronouncing judgement or what seems to me to be way to close to victim blaming. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. Before we go to removing lumber from some one else's eye, perhaps we should deal with our own plank. And I feel there are some major planks in our eyes and communities. Also, the black community is getting powerful prophetic teaching already. There are many black KingdomChristians, positioned well to teach and challenge. That is happening. We would do well to seek input and discipleship from them just as much as we see ourselves providing useful correctives. I have benefited from hearing teaching from our black brothers in the black communities. Let's be quicker to learn and listen and slower to judge or call them to repentance we deem necessary. Perhaps once our beam is removed we can more aptly help them with their lumber. Hopefully that makes sense and you see that perhaps it isn't counter to a kingdom gospel.

[joshuabgood]

Gary, I would lean on the vast vast majority of our black brothers and sisters in Christ to inform my understanding of the primary causes of the challenges faced by the black community.

So are you going to get up from your computer, go out personally among every single African American community in America and Canada; gather up their opinions honestly and without interpretation and record that data? Then have it checked and rechecked for researcher bias? Or are you just going to continue to preach at everyone by regurgitating the viewpoints of your favorite news sources and authors?

The first method will take roughly ten years if you do it correctly in order to get the face to face opinions.

The second is no better than what the mass media is trying to tell us to think and just makes you their pawn. We are called to imitate Jesus. What would Jesus do?

There is plenty of data that show the vast vast majority, beyond a super majority of 66%, feel that systemic racism is an issue they face in the USA. Are you prepared to tell them all that they are wrong and that you know better than they do what they experience? If so, that seems arrogant to me. That is all.

[Josh]

Gary...one other thing. It really bothers people of color when we play the two kingdom card if you will, dont take that too seriously, with regard to not speaking publicly to government on others peoples issues, but we are super organized about appealing our issues. Vincent Harding, a black Mennonite minister, was really bothered by that. The Menno church organized and appealed for special consideration from the Feds during WW2, but wouldn't speak to the feds about Civil Rights. It galled him.

Today meetings have been happening in the last couple years with Menno churches and authorities around the Corona Virus, sex abuse handling and church teaming with authorities, etc. Where are the meetings about issues on behalf of others?

(1) Church leaders are responsible for themselves. They need to be meeting with proper authorities about things like abuse (instead of opposing the police, like has happened too much in the past)

(2) It’s not reasonable to expect church leaders to go lobby the government at a mass scale on behalf of others. And where does this end? Should we be lobbying on behalf of slavery in China, which is at the largest scale of any slavery in human history? What should we lobby for? Tariffs? Closing the border with China? Starting a trade war or a regular war?