Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Bootstrap]

As a general rule, when there are two neighbouring countries that are very hostile towards each other... the one with the stronger military/economy is going to win.

And yet, neither Russia nor the United States were able to control Afghanistan. The United States lost in Vietnam.

I think Israel's confidence in a military solution is probably unwarranted. They have been trying precisely this approach since 1948, and it hasn't brought peace so far. After 75 years of trying an approach that isn't working, maybe try win-win diplomacy?

[joshuabgood]

The conflict is near irresolvable with Hamas, and Iran, as they deny Israel's right to exist at all, seeing them as occupying invaders since 1948.

Fatah is more moderate, though they don't get the votes in Gaza.

There won't be peace anytime soon. The whole thing is beyond horrific.

[Bootstrap]

The conflict is near irresolvable with Hamas, and Iran, as they deny Israel's right to exist at all, seeing them as occupying invaders since 1948.

Fatah is more moderate, though they don't get the votes in Gaza.

There won't be peace anytime soon. The whole thing is beyond horrific.

I agree completely. Sadly.

There have been no substantive diplomatic talks for well over a decade. And that has not been a major priority for American presidents for quite a long time. Pouring weapons into this now seems like a bad idea.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The conflict is near irresolvable with Hamas, and Iran, as they deny Israel's right to exist at all, seeing them as occupying invaders since 1948.

Fatah is more moderate, though they don't get the votes in Gaza.

There won't be peace anytime soon. The whole thing is beyond horrific.

I agree completely. Sadly.

There have been no substantive diplomatic talks for well over a decade. And that has not been a major priority for American presidents for quite a long time. Pouring weapons into this now seems like a bad idea.

In part, Fatah, which is largely the representative of Arab Secularism has failed, and continues to fail. The West Bank is slowly being carved up and given to Jewish settlers. So, in frustration, the populace has largely turned to Hamas, a representation of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hamas, a representation of the Muslim Brotherhood, and largely following the philosophy of Sayyid Qutb cannot negotiate . The Jewish settler movement cannot negotiate. Therefor the conflict is beyond any solution. Both sides claim divine right, and believe God will give them victory in the end.

Fatah, as an Arab secularist movement could negotiate. Unfortunately, that chance is lost.

[Josh]

As a general rule, when there are two neighbouring countries that are very hostile towards each other... the one with the stronger military/economy is going to win.

And yet, neither Russia nor the United States were able to control Afghanistan. The United States lost in Vietnam.

I think Israel's confidence in a military solution is probably unwarranted. They have been trying precisely this approach since 1948, and it hasn't brought peace so far. After 75 years of trying an approach that isn't working, maybe try win-win diplomacy?

Well, the U.S. isn't a neighbour and Russia wasn't either, although some of the USSR's satellite states were, but through mountains that are difficult to get past. Whereas Gaza and Israel is much like Rhode Island and Massachusetts. There is no natural division between the two places.

A "military solution" could allow them to conduct an occupation or brutally crush Hamas, but it's pretty hard to run long-term occupations of a city of 2 million people. Win-win diplomacy sounds good - but Hamas doesn't seem very willing to do that, and Israel's approach seems to be to create bantustans like they did in the West Bank. Unfortunately, there isn't a reasonable outcome unless both sides are willing to lay their arms down and find ways to coexist peacefully. I don't think that's possible outside of Christ's power. Both groups of people feel they have a rightful claim to the same territory and they don't agree at all on how a one-state solution government could be constituted.

For what it's worth, many Arab Catholics live quite peacefully in Israel proper and don't cause trouble. They also are treated like second class citizens, unfortunately. But it would be good if the rest of the Palestinians moved more in that direction.

[MaxPC]

Back to the original post:
Fact: Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, murdered, raped and killed with devastating violence as proven by their own videos of their atrocities.
Fact: Iran has proclaimed on several notable occasions they want Israel destroyed. They have admitted to planning and coordinating this attack from both Hamas and Hezbollah.

Regardless of how anyone feels about Israel and the Palestinians, the simple history is that if the Palestinians want to be treated well and have their own nation state, then they need to stop committing violence against others and stop allowing Iran to agitate them into committing these acts. They have now lost all credibility within diplomatic circles. Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

At this point however, they have thrown that credibility away for this generation.

Israel's other neighbours like Jordan and Egypt (and now KSA) have made peace. Lebanon has been in a stable truce for a while. Syria has avoided getting into conflicts, although I would not say they are in a state of peace or a truce.

But the Gaza - Israel relationship is very hot and violent.

Indeed, the Gaza is being agitated by Iran who has vowed the destruction of Israel. As you noted, Israel's other neighbours have attained and maintained peace with Israel. Peace is possible but Iran does not want it, hence the agitation of those who are easily agitated.

[Bootstrap]

I think Israel's confidence in a military solution is probably unwarranted. They have been trying precisely this approach since 1948, and it hasn't brought peace so far. After 75 years of trying an approach that isn't working, maybe try win-win diplomacy?

Well, the U.S. isn't a neighbour and Russia wasn't either, although some of the USSR's satellite states were, but through mountains that are difficult to get past. Whereas Gaza and Israel is much like Rhode Island and Massachusetts. There is no natural division between the two places.

Even with neighbors, military insurgencies can last a very long time, and sometimes win, against much greater military powers. The Kurdish Peshmerga still has not been conquered, despite the best efforts of Saddam Hussein and ISIS. FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) eventually forced the Columbian government to negotiate a peace agreement with them. The Algerian National Liberation Front beat the French colonial forces and founded Algeria.

I don't think Saddam Hussein or the Columbian government were pulling any punches.

A "military solution" could allow them to conduct an occupation or brutally crush Hamas, but it's pretty hard to run long-term occupations of a city of 2 million people.

And when Israel destroys the Palestine Tower, that's a lot like destroying the Twin Towers in New York. I bet Hamas is now eyeing some towers in Israel - I don't know if they could pull it off, but when I saw the attack on the Palestine Tower, that's the first thing I wondered. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves everyone blind and toothless.

Win-win diplomacy sounds good - but Hamas doesn't seem very willing to do that, and Israel's approach seems to be to create bantustans like they did in the West Bank. Unfortunately, there isn't a reasonable outcome unless both sides are willing to lay their arms down and find ways to coexist peacefully.

I don't think the international community or Israel would accept Hamas as the negotiating party. But Palestinians do need representation in negotiations. Ideally, Palestine should be allowed to form a government that can negotiate, but even that requires negotiation. I don't know if it's possible to get there from here, but it's possible to pray.

Saudi Arabia has not yet signed on to the Abraham Accords, and Palestine is a big sticking point for them. I would LOVE to see a solution that brings Saudi Arabia in and provides representation and security for Palestine, together with security for Israel. Again, I can only pray.

For what it's worth, many Arab Catholics live quite peacefully in Israel proper and don't cause trouble. They also are treated like second class citizens, unfortunately. But it would be good if the rest of the Palestinians moved more in that direction.

I have really enjoyed reading a book and listening to many lectures by Elias Chacour.

[Ken]

As a general rule, when there are two neighbouring countries that are very hostile towards each other... the one with the stronger military/economy is going to win.

And yet, neither Russia nor the United States were able to control Afghanistan. The United States lost in Vietnam.

I think Israel's confidence in a military solution is probably unwarranted. They have been trying precisely this approach since 1948, and it hasn't brought peace so far. After 75 years of trying an approach that isn't working, maybe try win-win diplomacy?

Well, the U.S. isn't a neighbour and Russia wasn't either, although some of the USSR's satellite states were, but through mountains that are difficult to get past. Whereas Gaza and Israel is much like Rhode Island and Massachusetts. There is no natural division between the two places.

A "military solution" could allow them to conduct an occupation or brutally crush Hamas, but it's pretty hard to run long-term occupations of a city of 2 million people. Win-win diplomacy sounds good - but Hamas doesn't seem very willing to do that, and Israel's approach seems to be to create bantustans like they did in the West Bank. Unfortunately, there isn't a reasonable outcome unless both sides are willing to lay their arms down and find ways to coexist peacefully. I don't think that's possible outside of Christ's power. Both groups of people feel they have a rightful claim to the same territory and they don't agree at all on how a one-state solution government could be constituted.

For what it's worth, many Arab Catholics live quite peacefully in Israel proper and don't cause trouble. They also are treated like second class citizens, unfortunately. But it would be good if the rest of the Palestinians moved more in that direction.

It seems like there are really two conflicts going on in the middle east that often overlap but are not the same thing.

There is the Arab-Israeli conflict which is a political conflict over territory. As with all political conflicts there should theoretically be a political solution.

Then there is also a religious conflict between Judaism and Islam that is growing largely because of the failure to resolve the political conflict above. Religious conflicts are not solvable by political compromise. Palestinians seem to be growing more religiously radicalized. And so is a segment of the Israeli population. Absent a solution to the political conflict it seems likely that this will just grow and fester.

[MaxPC]

A "military solution" could allow them to conduct an occupation or brutally crush Hamas, but it's pretty hard to run long-term occupations of a city of 2 million people. Win-win diplomacy sounds good - but Hamas doesn't seem very willing to do that... Unfortunately, there isn't a reasonable outcome unless both sides are willing to lay their arms down and find ways to coexist peacefully. I don't think that's possible outside of Christ's power. Both groups of people feel they have a rightful claim to the same territory and they don't agree at all on how a one-state solution government could be constituted.

Indeed, Hamas is not willing to do so and at the urging of Iran, is doing everything possible to keep the violence ongoing.

Israeli soldiers shared details of unimaginable atrocities committed in a community where dozens of victims, including about 40 babies, were massacred by Hamas terrorists... Reporters with i24 News toured the "scene of devastation" in the community of about 700, where soldiers worked to remove bodies of victims who were brutally murdered in their homes. Some soldiers said they found babies with their heads cut off, according to i24 News.

Violence against children will only incite more violence against those who perpetrated these atrocities.

[RZehr]

If you have a caged animal, you deprive it of food and taunt it with a stick, why are you surprised when it bites you?

An attack like happened this week is a cornered dog that occasionally bites back.

Hamas is committed to the removal of the Israel state. They constantly are attacking. No other country on earth would tolerate that, but somehow Israel gets a bad rap for trying to block their attacks. This is a very important distinction from a cornered animal. Hamas is not attacking because they are cornered. They are imprisoned, because they are mass murderers, with a stated goal of more terror and war. Every other country on earth imprisons such people. America does, Russia does, Iran does. Society can't function with dangerous people freely wondering around killing, bombing, etc. They need locked up. Granted, other countries only lock up the guilty ones, and Gaza has mostly innocent ones. But then again, what other country has a similar problem like Gaza? I think most if not all countries would respond in the way that Israel has.
Hamas is made up of intelligent humans with free will. They are not a cornered animal, that when the pressure is off, the animal simply runs away and minds its own business. Hamas is a relentless danger. Letting them out of a corner will not make the danger go away, that is the difference between them and a cornered animal.

I don't see anything about this problem that can be connected to God's promise to Israel, and my sympathies (whatever I may have) are not based on prophesies about Israel. I just know people there, have visited there a couple times, and I come away thinking that regarding Gaza, Israel has been forced into the defensive position because of Hamas. And I don't know why Egypt gets a pass on the matter. Egypt doesn't trust Hamas any more than Israel does. If Hamas was so great, Egypt could easily open their border and Gaza could be just fine. Gaza's imprisonment in not monopolized by Israel alone.