LGBT and Christian Persecution

[GaryK]

Gary, would you condemn, al quaeda, the mafia, the Taliban, Hezbollah, the Confederacy, and the rebellious 13 colonies, and Henry the 8th?

What makes a coercive principality a ruler by divine right?

I generally do not involve myself in either condemning or promoting worldly political systems. I suppose only God can answer all the questions about why He sets up coercive principalities but I believe one of the reasons He does is because of the sin humanity has chosen to be involved in.

[temporal1]

GaryK:
.. So if stopping human suffering is behind calling out the evil Russia is doing, why not call for Ukraine to surrender?
For some reason no one seems to want to address this particular question.

These are the types of questions I'm looking for answers to. In fact, we are going to have this very discussion in church this morning.

It’s very puzzling.
Esp since (i’ve not seen) anything that states Putin is looking for surrender.
The talks are PRIVATE, speculation is PUBLIC.

A neutral Ukraine sounds appealing (to me). (But, hey, i’m not part of the MIC.)
From the little i’ve seen, Putin’s proposals/demands look like a reasonable starting place for resolution - as you say -
which might have been agreed BEFORE bloodshed. It sure opens the door to questions of the Left-West’s unspoken motives!

Russia's demands

Of course this is, at best, a brief summary. ^^^
It’s pretty strange to think the Left-West is making Putin appear lucid. But .. .. if the shoe (stiletto) fits ..

.. it would be interesting to listen to your church discussion.

- - - - - - - -

so far, i’m encouraged by results:
“Poll: Loving Putin”
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4642

which suggests Christian love and tolerance are important to forum members. even in duress, which is important to Jesus.
as Neto pointed out, Putin AND Zelensky are in need of prayers and converted hearts.

[GaryK]

GaryK:
.. So if stopping human suffering is behind calling out the evil Russia is doing, why not call for Ukraine to surrender?
For some reason no one seems to want to address this particular question.

These are the types of questions I'm looking for answers to. In fact, we are going to have this very discussion in church this morning.

It’s very puzzling.
Esp since (i’ve not seen) anything that states Putin is looking for surrender.
The talks are PRIVATE, speculation is PUBLIC.

A neutral Ukraine sounds appealing (to me). (But, hey, i’m not part of the MIC.)
From the little i’ve seen, Putin’s proposals/demands look like a reasonable starting place for resolution - as you say -
which might have been agreed BEFORE bloodshed. It sure opens the door to questions of the Left-West’s unspoken motives!

Russia's demands

Of course this is, at best, a brief summary. ^^^
It’s pretty strange to think the Left-West is making Putin appear lucid. But .. .. if the shoe (stiletto) fits ..

.. it would be interesting to listen to your church discussion.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling for Ukraine to surrender or to stop fighting back. I'm just wondering why the proponents of Christians calling out evil within earthly political systems in the name of stopping human suffering aren't calling for Ukraine to follow Jesus' teachings to not resist evil and to overcome evil with good. I think this may expose that there is possibly some other subtle yet important reasons behind this call for Christians to call out evil within earthly political systems that need to be identified.

[temporal1]

GaryK:
Just to be clear, I'm not calling for Ukraine to surrender or to stop fighting back.

I'm just wondering why the proponents of Christians calling out evil within earthly political systems in the name of stopping human suffering aren't calling for Ukraine to follow Jesus' teachings to not resist evil and to overcome evil with good.

I think this may expose that there is possibly some other subtle yet important reasons behind this call for Christians to call out evil within earthly political systems that need to be identified.

me, too. tough questions.

[Dan Z]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonates with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good Samaritan.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel like the same situation as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerents.

At the same time, cheering on as the West pours weaponry into Ukraine would be like handing the mugging victim a gun to "settle the score."

The Christian response in all of this is the response of the Samaritan - to practice empathy, bind wounds, and minister hope and healing to the oppressed. Blessed are the peacemakers!

If I'm understanding correctly, you are probably referencing Jesus speaking to the religious Jewish leaders. I see that differently than speaking to political systems like Ukraine and Russia.

If I had a chance to talk with Putin or Zelensky or any of the individual soldiers involved in the war, I would tell them they are in the wrong kingdom and point out the differences in the 2 kingdoms. Their kingdoms are full of turmoil and fighting and the other is a Kingdom of suffering love where peace is taught and this Kingdom is led by Jesus. I would invite them to become of part of the Kingdom of suffering love and peace.

I would not attempt to tell them how they should run their kingdoms because I don't know for what purpose God has set up their particular kingdoms. I also don't know the mind of God on this war and I'm doubtful anyone does. I keep thinking about the time Jesus said "If My Kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Isn't Jesus implying that it is expected that earthly kingdoms and their rulers will fight and use coercion to accomplish their goals? Fighting and coercion always have and always will cause suffering and exploitation.

If NT KOG ethics and principles are what is behind a Christian calling out aggression and warmongering by the aggressor country, wouldn't those same ethics and principles prompt the Christian to also call on the country being oppressed and exploited to overcome evil with good and not fight back. If not, why not? I don't hear any of that kind of response being promoted here and to me that seems inconsistent. It also feels like promoting one and not the other is like saying God has taken a side in this war and is giving Ukraine an exemption from these Kingdom ethics and principles because they are the ones being wronged.

So, to me, Christians not calling out horrible things political systems do, doesn't feel like a matter of aloofness and not caring about those being exploited. I really do care. (Our church recently sent a love offering to a brother in Poland to help with the refugee crisis.) To me it feels like a matter of accepting the reality, as it seems Jesus did, that worldly political systems use fighting and coercion to accomplish their goals. And the reality of it happening in this Russia/Ukraine war really should be another strong wake up call to the church to get as many people out of worldly kingdoms into the NT KOG as we can.

This is a wise response Gary...thanks for putting the time into it. Your position is quite consistent, and helps us from getting sucked into political loyalties or pointlessly trying to impose Kingdom values and principles on non-kingdom power structures. You point to loving, personal relationships as the contact point between the lost and a relationship with Jesus. I agree wholeheartedly! I think we're not far apart, and I have no interest in activism or co-opting political power.

I'm mostly thinking about Christ-like empathy here, and the willingness as peacemakers, to grieve with those who grieve and mourn with those who mourn. Mostly, to me it seems right to stand in solidarity with the oppressed and with the displaced, and this includes recognizing and calling out a wrong when it has been perpetrated upon them.

Secondarily, as a New Covenant Christian, I also struggle with the idea that Christ is somehow working out His divine will by allowing or raising up a warmonger for the destruction of innocent lives - something that is diametrically opposed to his teachings. (In the same way that I don't think Jesus directs hurricanes to punish sin-filled cities, or deadly plagues to chastize gay people.). This seems like an Old Covenant concept that contradicts the witness and way of God in Christ Jesus. I believe we can say without hesitation that warmongering is wrong and against the will of Christ...in the same way that abortion is wrong and against the will of Jesus.

[Sudsy]

I don't believe God is directly involved in wars other than to say He gave man choice and within these choices that man makes, God is not thwarted in what He aims to do. When I pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven, the way I view this, is that I am saying that I am acknowledging that regardless of what I currently see happening, none of this will stop God from accomplishing His will here on this earth.

In this I can have peace in the midst of the storm. A trust that God has His reasons for allowing man to continue with his choices, as bad as they may be, and God alone will decide when enough is enough. For we walk by faith and not by sight.

The KOG believer is able to live anxiety free if we chose to do so in the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

[nett]

Sure you can. Japan is a highly moral and ordered society with far less problems than American society. With a murder rate that is 26-times lower than the US and a rate of violent rape that is 66-times lower than the US. Just to cite two examples. We can look at other metrics like divorce rate or abortion rate if you like. Both of which are about half that of the US.

None of Japanese law or sense of morality is based on anything to do with Judeo-Christian traditions or principles. Or a Judeo-Christian God. To the extent that any of it is religious-based it would be Buddhist and Shinto which are the two traditional and cultural religions in Japan.

Murder and rape rates do not exclusively define a flourishing society, in fact, they're not a good indicator of anything other than those rates themselves.

Japan today today is a result of post-ww2, western reconstruction. If you look at pre-WW2 Japan, you find a civilization that does not mirror Western values or structure at all.

Japan today is not doing well at all. Far below replacement birth-rates, extremely low marriage rates, and high suicide rates (2nd only to the US in the G7). On an economic level, they are massively indebted, which was a goal of the ww2 reconstruction of their society.

If you look at small populations like the Ryukyu Islands, you will find a much less western-influenced way of life, and much more societal functionality.

[temporal1]

Murder and rape rates do not exclusively define a flourishing society, in fact, they're not a good indicator of anything other than those rates themselves.

Japan today today is a result of post-ww2, western reconstruction.
If you look at pre-WW2 Japan, you find a civilization that does not mirror Western values or structure at all.

Japan today is not doing well at all.
Far below replacement birth-rates, extremely low marriage rates, and high suicide rates (2nd only to the US in the G7). On an economic level, they are massively indebted, which was a goal of the ww2 reconstruction of their society.

If you look at small populations like the Ryukyu Islands, you will find a much less western-influenced way of life,
and much more societal functionality.

nett,
i’m sorry. you seem to be suggesting contemporary left-west society is not a “cure for all ills.”

this “does not compute.”

[nett]

Murder and rape rates do not exclusively define a flourishing society, in fact, they're not a good indicator of anything other than those rates themselves.

Japan today today is a result of post-ww2, western reconstruction.
If you look at pre-WW2 Japan, you find a civilization that does not mirror Western values or structure at all.

Japan today is not doing well at all.
Far below replacement birth-rates, extremely low marriage rates, and high suicide rates (2nd only to the US in the G7). On an economic level, they are massively indebted, which was a goal of the ww2 reconstruction of their society.

If you look at small populations like the Ryukyu Islands, you will find a much less western-influenced way of life,
and much more societal functionality.

nett,
i’m sorry. you seem to be suggesting contemporary left-west society is not a “cure for all ills.”

this “does not compute.”

What can I say? I'm not a classical liberal. I don't believe in any of it anymore.

[temporal1]

Murder and rape rates do not exclusively define a flourishing society, in fact, they're not a good indicator of anything other than those rates themselves.

Japan today today is a result of post-ww2, western reconstruction.
If you look at pre-WW2 Japan, you find a civilization that does not mirror Western values or structure at all.

Japan today is not doing well at all.
Far below replacement birth-rates, extremely low marriage rates, and high suicide rates (2nd only to the US in the G7). On an economic level, they are massively indebted, which was a goal of the ww2 reconstruction of their society.

If you look at small populations like the Ryukyu Islands, you will find a much less western-influenced way of life,
and much more societal functionality.

nett,
i’m sorry. you seem to be suggesting contemporary left-west society is not a “cure for all ills.”

this “does not compute.”

What can I say? I'm not a classical liberal. I don't believe in any of it anymore.

“i don’t know much,” but my eyes were at least partly opened after W’s experience in Iraq. i believe he was 100% convinced he would be a hero and welcomed with open arms. Colin Powell tried to warn him. “a word to the wise is sufficient.”

Secretary of State Colin Powell told this president [Bush] the Pottery Barn rule:
If you break it, you fix it.
Now, if you break it, you made a mistake. It's the wrong thing to do. But you own it.
wiki

The U.S. wants to be right, to own it, and be proud. Big egos.
How to go forward making sure biden comes out “smelling like a rose?”
(Ukraine) has got to be framed this way, or, “protracted war” it is.

The Left-West is “ace” at framing things whichever way they choose, so, reality is a nuisance, not a deal-breaker.