The Josh we don't want to hear about

[temporal1]

You can never pin the guy down, whether answering him or confronting him. He always squirts out to the side.
He will taunt and accuse and mock, then when proven wrong, he sidesteps.

I find it frustrating to relate to this kind of folks also, but from my vantage point, it is not just the leftists and Bill Gothard types, etc., that do this. People/Humans do this. From my vantage point, it is not fair to stereo type people like this, as there are many people in these subcultures who do not fit this categorization.
Perhaps the percentage of people who do this is higher in particular subcultures. But branding someone as, "You are _______________ type because you listen to __________________", is a caricature that is neither kind nor Christian. Especially considering that fact that the one doing the talking may do the same thing himself at times and/or have people in his own subculture that do the same thing.
Romans 2

Hmm... I'm listening. To the extent I understand you correctly, I think I agree with you. Right down to "may do the same thing himself".

Except maybe the "not fair to stereotype people like this". The number of members of the vile mainstream news media or of the Bill Gothard types that aren't like this are so extremely rare that they are statistically irrelevant. If I said "the left" or "Bill Gothard followers", I would agree.

But I'm listening...

Refusing to be sucked in by “vile” isn’t left or right. It should be valued, no matter left or right-leaning.
Sadly, today’s politicians+their fawning media, have been overly successful in convincing many to buy into their lies.

[temporal1]

steve:
I've been shocked over the years... people that put off creeper vibes... panned out every time

i value intuition/instinct/warning signs.

but, THE MOST SUCCESSFUL predators “look great,” “pass the smell tests,” etc.
there are hundreds+hundreds of posts on this forum about examples of this with many victims.

honestly, these are the ones who scare me most (when it comes to my family).
i can be fooled, too. i know it. pray for guidance and protection.

i was never drawn into josh duggar or bill g., for any reason.
i appreciate rp, so i would remain neutral unless specifically convinced.

[ragpicker]

I'm conflicted on the whole "trust your gut" thing.

On one hand, I have a long history myself of trusting my gut and being scorned for it, and then later being proven right. I had Bill Gothard pegged as an abusive creep long before anything came out in public. I have privately called situation after situation, where I was later proven right. That doesn't make me special or always right. It is what it is. Because of the scorn I have faced, I have long believed that "no one wants to hear what I have to say" about this stuff, and to a large extent, that has been true. But it became a lie that has silenced me when I could have prevented problems. I have been repenting of agreement with those lies and am still working on living out the truth. All that to say, this thing of trusting your gut is a big deal for me.

I say, "You cannot accuse someone based on your gut, but you can and should pay attention." There's a number of people, mostly women, whose gut I trust almost completely. Again, I won't accuse, based on it, but I will believe it to probably be reality.

So, my inclination is to just agree with "trust your gut", and in general, that's what I too say. "What does your gut say?" "That's he's a creep." "Then you're probably right."

On the other hand, there's some toxic stuff out there that confuses everything. And then there's people who have a "gut feeling", but it is born out of this toxic junk. Meanwhile, these same purveyors of toxicity are creeping out the women I trust. I mean, DING DING DING level creeping out. What do you do with that? it gets so bizarre. Like this one man that creeped me and a few friends out, big time. remembering what I felt makes me almost shudder. Then a young lady tells me that she was asked to sit on his lap as part of her "counseling" or whatever it was. Then this man and people near him level this same accusation at another man who has a strong stance against such immoral shenanigans. Then people's gut feel of this man are formed by these rumors.

I guess the bottom line is, there's a number of sketchy people out there claiming their gut told them someone else set them off, when they themselves are the sketchy creepy ones. Wow, it gets bizarre. Too many of these situations for me to just give full agreement to "trust your gut".

And yet, you should trust your gut. it's probably right.

[temporal1]

rp:
I'm conflicted on the whole "trust your gut" thing. ..

it’s not really that difficult. (to me.)

“trust your gut” - DO NOT make a false god out of it. it’s a tool. use it along with other tools in your tool box.
maybe “listen to your gut” would be more accurate. use it along with everything else. it’s not absolute.

accept you/your gut may be mistaken. leave room for error. it’s NOT God.

allowing “the tail to wag the dog” because there MIGHT be an error, is also an error.
our present legal system is fairly crippled by this attempt - to avoid every error, no matter how remote.

predators+psychopaths thrive because of it. Waukesha is a recent example. more coming in the pipeline.

rp:
And yet, you should trust your gut. it's probably right.

listen to it. don’t make it absolute. no false gods.

[Szdfan]

I'm conflicted on the whole "trust your gut" thing.

On one hand, I have a long history myself of trusting my gut and being scorned for it, and then later being proven right. I had Bill Gothard pegged as an abusive creep long before anything came out in public. I have privately called situation after situation, where I was later proven right. That doesn't make me special or always right. It is what it is. Because of the scorn I have faced, I have long believed that "no one wants to hear what I have to say" about this stuff, and to a large extent, that has been true. But it became a lie that has silenced me when I could have prevented problems. I have been repenting of agreement with those lies and am still working on living out the truth. All that to say, this thing of trusting your gut is a big deal for me.

I say, "You cannot accuse someone based on your gut, but you can and should pay attention." There's a number of people, mostly women, whose gut I trust almost completely. Again, I won't accuse, based on it, but I will believe it to probably be reality.

So, my inclination is to just agree with "trust your gut", and in general, that's what I too say. "What does your gut say?" "That's he's a creep." "Then you're probably right."

On the other hand, there's some toxic stuff out there that confuses everything. And then there's people who have a "gut feeling", but it is born out of this toxic junk. Meanwhile, these same purveyors of toxicity are creeping out the women I trust. I mean, DING DING DING level creeping out. What do you do with that? it gets so bizarre. Like this one man that creeped me and a few friends out, big time. remembering what I felt makes me almost shudder. Then a young lady tells me that she was asked to sit on his lap as part of her "counseling" or whatever it was. Then this man and people near him level this same accusation at another man who has a strong stance against such immoral shenanigans. Then people's gut feel of this man are formed by these rumors.

I guess the bottom line is, there's a number of sketchy people out there claiming their gut told them someone else set them off, when they themselves are the sketchy creepy ones. Wow, it gets bizarre. Too many of these situations for me to just give full agreement to "trust your gut".

And yet, you should trust your gut. it's probably right.

I wouldn't want to go to court just based on my gut and I wouldn't want to make public accusations. You're right: people's intuition can be wrong. But I do think we need to trust our intutiion when it tells us something isn't right and we should avoid a situtaion.

[steve-in-kville]

I don't think I've ever made an accusation on a gut feeling, but it allowed me to keep my guard up until hard evidence revealed itself. Good police work follows the evidence. That said, intuition often helps find that evidence.

[Josh]

Ken,

Lots of people (including very good people) have been involved with IBLP and gone and stayed at their institutions. Including a good friend of mine. Doesn’t mean she’s somehow a “bad person” (her and her friends indeed worked together to help vulnerable young women avoid being targets of Gothard and his brother, who was the actual super predator).

It is improper to simply levy your guilt by association at Duggar and Gothard - this kind of sloppy accusations is in fact how they got away with so much for so long.

[Ken]

Ken,

Lots of people (including very good people) have been involved with IBLP and gone and stayed at their institutions. Including a good friend of mine. Doesn’t mean she’s somehow a “bad person” (her and her friends indeed worked together to help vulnerable young women avoid being targets of Gothard and his brother, who was the actual super predator).

It is improper to simply levy your guilt by association at Duggar and Gothard - this kind of sloppy accusations is in fact how they got away with so much for so long.

I did not "guilt by association" anyone associated with IBLP.

What I said was that Gothard and the Duggars had a long business and religious association going back decades which you questioned and for which I provided documentation.

What I also said was that it wasn't just the Duggar family that sheltered Josh Duggar from the law all of these years from when the first documented instances of child abuse were discovered in 2006 up until very recently when he was arrested for possessing and dealing in the very worst and most vile subcategory of child porn. It was the police who looked the other way (and who themselves have been convicted of child porn), it was the producers of the TV show who kept putting Josh on TV even after they knew he had allegations of abuse against him, it was politicians who spoke up for him (the Mike Huckabee quote I posted upstream) and it was Gothard who not only took in Josh into the institute when the family needed to make him disappear, but who also spoke at length supporting Josh and testifying to his good character as is evidenced by the quote that Nett found. Basically there was a whole network of people in the Duggar and Gothard circles who closed ranks around Josh and helped protect Josh from the consequences of his actions. Including most definitely Gothard himself as he was very public in his support for Josh Duggar.

I also pointed out that the homeschooling curriculum produced by Gothard and used and promoted by the Duggars on their show has some very questionable teachings on child sexual abuse, basically teaching young girls that they are at fault for their own abuse. And I provided links to the actual material so anyone can judge for themselves.

What I did not do is "guilt by association" anyone involved with IBLP.

[steve-in-kville]

Bill Gothard is 87 y/o. Couldn't have said he was that age.

[ragpicker]

Bill Gothard is 87 y/o. Couldn't have said he was that age.

Yet the damage he wrought lives on. In certain ways, this year has been a nightmare for us because of evil that was propped up and empowered by his poison.