Poll: Masks and Face Shields

[Ken]

Here is an interesting story about the politics of masks during the 1918 pandemic. Interesting reading. If you were not aware of the dates, it would sound exactly like what is happening today. EXACTLY.

https://crosscut.com/2020/07/mask-wars- ... u-pandemic

Some excerpts

The masks recommended during the 1918 pandemic were made of heavy-duty six-ply cotton gauze. They were thick and no particular joy to wear. People who refused to wear them or couldn’t be bothered were called “mask slackers” or “mask scoffers.” During World War I, the term slacker described people who neglected their patriotic duty, almost as bad as being a draft dodger.

In Walla Walla, the chief of police, John Haven, refused to enforce a state mask mandate. He pointed out that he was going to meet heavy resistance and, anyway, that he had no authority to carry out a state directive, only city ordinances. Still, he also openly defied the instructions of the city’s health officer, J.E. Vanderpool, to follow the state health officer’s guidance.

Even as people dropped dead in Walla Walla and rural southeast Washington, business owners pushed to have their establishments — saloons and billiard halls — reopened in defiance of advice from most doctors and health officials. The Walla Walla police chief’s determination not to enforce a state edict is mirrored today by a number of sheriffs in rural Washington who have said they will not enforce Gov. Jay Inslee’s mask requirements. The sheriff of modern-day Lewis County told his people, “Don’t be a sheep.”

Yakima was less reluctant to crack down on scoffers and slackers if they were doing business with the public. The city's sanitation inspector arrested 15 people for “working or transacting business in a public place without wearing gauze masks prescribed by the city health commissioner,” according to a 1918 article in the Spokesman-Review. The problem was the merchants, not their customers. The business community held that the city had no authority to mandate masks.

Then, as now, health officials were divided on whether masks truly prevented the spread of Spanish influenza. Many understood that the chances of transmission were worse in enclosed public spaces, like churches and movie theaters, but opinion was divided on the efficacy of masks outdoors. Some believed the fresh air fought the flu, and encouraged people to open their windows and let in the bountiful breeze.

[Josh]

Except the Spanish flu is not at all the same disease as the coronavirus, although both did come from China.

[Ernie]

Six months ago, the experts told us not to wear masks.

And what were the reasons for why they told us not to wear masks?

They told us they weren’t effective in January / February. By April, they told us the real reason they said was that they were effective, but wanted to preserve stockpiles for health care workers.

That does not inspire any confidence in “experts” who change their story frequently.

Six months ago, the experts told us not to wear masks.

And what were the reasons for why they told us not to wear masks?

Not directed to me, but there were reasons. According to Dr. Fauci, healthcare workers needed them more than everyone else. Once the supply was available, they delayed telling everyone to mask up so they could hide the white lie a bit.

So you don't believe that additional studies and research influenced their change of position?

[Josh]

And what were the reasons for why they told us not to wear masks?

They told us they weren’t effective in January / February. By April, they told us the real reason they said was that they were effective, but wanted to preserve stockpiles for health care workers.

That does not inspire any confidence in “experts” who change their story frequently.

And what were the reasons for why they told us not to wear masks?

Not directed to me, but there were reasons. According to Dr. Fauci, healthcare workers needed them more than everyone else. Once the supply was available, they delayed telling everyone to mask up so they could hide the white lie a bit.

So you don't believe that additional studies and research influenced their change of position?

Part of my opinion on Dr Fauci is based on how he mishandled the AIDS crisis, with massive resources dedicated towards a vaccine (which never happened), but refusing to use a simple solution like abstinence which would have stopped AIDS in its tracks.

[Bootstrap]

We very obviously have differing perspectives, we are probably both right at least to some degree. Do notice that in a lot of these studies the words "might", "may", "suggest" are often used "suggesting" that a lot of the statements are presumptive.

Sure. This is the best we know so far. And recent data has strengthened the evidence enough that CDC strengthened their guidelines.

As for the "puffing", no I was not referring to smoking, I should have probably not used quotation marks.
I wasn't sure if you were being facetious or if you didn't understand what I meant.

That was meant as a light-hearted joke. It was ambiguous in the original context, but I knew exactly what you meant. I was trying to be funny and apparently failed.

As to the cases I mentioned, the outbreaks in LTCFs are all considered resolved new cases seem to be random community transfers, there is some uncertainty often as to actual source.
In the one local region yesterday, 2 of the 3 new cases were HealthCare workers, but no further details were given.
So possibly when dealing with large numbers of infections masks will have a large effect, when dealing with smaller numbers, not so much. Do they prevent smaller numbers from developing into larger numbers? How do you know for sure?

With a sample size that small, not controlling for other sources, I think it's especially hard to know for sure. Even with the larger sample sizes from the studies I quoted, there is some uncertainty. But I think the evidence is getting strong enough to take notice. And it certainly has face validity. Based on what we know, I think it's obvious why face masks are recommended.

I'm suspicious that if we view masking as the silver bullet we will become careless in other areas, which have more potential to do us harm.

If you have a choice between a mask and six feet of fresh air, the fresh air is probably more effective. Either way, you still need testing with quick results, sentinal testing, contact tracing, sufficient PPE for healthcare workers, hand washing ... no one thing is sufficient.

Mandatory masking and mandatory seat belts have been favorably compared, and it is true for both of them that they may or may not protect from harm, but neither of them actually solves the problem.

Sure. Don't put on a seat belt and drive off a cliff.

[Bootstrap]

Part of my opinion on Dr Fauci is based on how he mishandled the AIDS crisis, with massive resources dedicated towards a vaccine (which never happened), but refusing to use a simple solution like abstinence which would have stopped AIDS in its tracks.

What is the simple way to convince the entire world to practice abstinence?

I don't know if Dr. Fauci was abstinent in the 1970s and early 1980s or not. I was, but it didn't seem to have any effect on the AIDS epidemic. I didn't blame Dr. Fauci for that.

[ken_sylvania]

Part of my opinion on Dr Fauci is based on how he mishandled the AIDS crisis, with massive resources dedicated towards a vaccine (which never happened), but refusing to use a simple solution like abstinence which would have stopped AIDS in its tracks.

What is the simple way to convince the entire world to practice abstinence?

I don't know if Dr. Fauci was abstinent in the 1970s and early 1980s or not. I was, but it didn't seem to have any effect on the AIDS epidemic. I didn't blame Dr. Fauci for that.

I didn't realize you had AIDS...
.
.
or was your abstinence perhaps more effective than you give it credit for.

[Bootstrap]

I didn't realize you had AIDS...

I didn't either. It's amazing what you can learn on Internet forums. Are you sure about this?

... or was your abstinence perhaps more effective than you give it credit for.

Sure, I didn't get AIDS, but I do value the work people have done to reduce the suffering of AIDS. Even if promiscuity and drug needles are frequent causes of AIDS. I find it strange that anyone would tear down Fauci for trying to save lives.

[Josh]

The best way to “save lives” would have been widespread public health education that promiscuity, particularly of the homosexual variety, leads to death.

Should such activity be illegal? If face masks are going to be enforced by the law, then promiscuity and homosexuality should be banned and enforced as well, since those things definitely do lead to deaths including from AIDS.

Fauci spent billions chasing a vaccine, which has never been successful. There is still no vaccine that prevents HIV or AIDS. Instead of doing that, he should have been preparing for another type of pandemic like SARS; what we got was a guy who lied to us and told us not to wear face masks because we didn’t have enough 40¢ face masks to deal with a mild disease.

[Ken]

The best way to “save lives” would have been widespread public health education that promiscuity, particularly of the homosexual variety, leads to death.

Should such activity be illegal? If face masks are going to be enforced by the law, then promiscuity and homosexuality should be banned and enforced as well, since those things definitely do lead to deaths including from AIDS.

Fauci spent billions chasing a vaccine, which has never been successful. There is still no vaccine that prevents HIV or AIDS. Instead of doing that, he should have been preparing for another type of pandemic like SARS; what we got was a guy who lied to us and told us not to wear face masks because we didn’t have enough 40¢ face masks to deal with a mild disease.

Sure, the AIDs epidemic could have been eliminated and the virus eradicated from the earth if everyone had just followed Josh's advice on promiscuity.

Likewise, we could lick Covid-19 on a worldwide basis and eradicate the virus from the earth in about 3 weeks if everyone just wore masks and socially distanced as recommended. No need for all this endless economic turmoil and billions spent on vaccine research.

In practice it isn't so easy.

AIDs wasn't just a gay disease in San Francisco. The most devastating part of the epidemic by far was in Africa where it crashed through the hetero community mostly.