Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

[Wade]

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.


We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites.

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

If your speaking to me directly I already answered that question on page 4 and quoted Titus 3:9. And I'm not sure what I said here for you ask something I already answered anyway?

[silentreader]

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

If your speaking to me directly I already answered that question on page 4 and quoted Titus 3:9. And I'm not sure what I said here for you ask something I already answered anyway?

I wasn't talking to you necessarily except as you seem to continue to get involved in the conversation. If I understood what you said, then I agree that this "ethnic Mennonite" thing has no place in a discussion among Christians, so why does it keep rearing its ugly head?
The big thing in my mind is not that you "don't want to be a Mennonite" but that you don't allow your feelings towards those of us who do, to interfere with your Christian thought life and Christian walk. That would be tragedy both for you and for us.

[Ernie]

A couple of dozen posts back you mentioned that Mark and one of his brothers helped build your home 5 or so years ago. There have been some rumors going around Facebook that he hated Mennonites, stole from Mennonite businesses, and that his parents were excommunicated from Nationwide for not bringing him into line. So far it's all been people saying, "I heard" or "Someone said" when it comes to these rumors. I prefer something a little more concrete than that. Based on your acquaintance with Mark can you confirm or deny any of those rumors? If this crosses the line into what you feel is gossip then please feel free to say you're not comfortable answering.

I am not comfortable answering this publically.

If Mark Gooch had kidnapped and murdered a Hispanic woman, or a Navajo woman then it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the religious denomination of his parents would ever enter into any sort of discussion or even investigation. It would likely be thought to be irrelevant background material.
However, in this case, it seems we have a suspect of conservative Mennonite background who drove almost 500 miles across state lines to kidnap a Mennonite woman from a VERY off-the-beaten-path church compound on a dirt road in Farmington NM.

Yes, I don't doubt the connection at all.

I think it's accurate to say that Mark Gooch was raised Mennonite. That still does not appear to appeal to a few people on Facebook though so I think I'll refer to him from now on as "Someone raised by parents who were members of a Mennonite church."

Your last statement is fine. If I was to make a statement, I would simply say, "Mark grew up in a Mennonite community."

[Chris]

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

I agree with Aurien that it is problem for non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they are permanent outsiders. Wherever this happens, Mennonites have some repenting to do.
However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

I don't identify with Jan Matthys and the Muensterites, even though the authorities lumped my spiritual ancestors and the Muensterites all together and called them all Anabaptists.

I personally feel there's been enough discussion about Mennonite ethnicity on this particular thread. I'd prefer that the conversation about ethnicity moved elsewhere unless it pertains to Mark Gooch in some way.

To me it was all relevant to the topic of this thread but I can understand how that point got lost along the way.

The following is IF he is guilty->

Was Mark raised in a Mennonite church? Did he go to Mennonite school? Was he around Mennonites in his upbringing?

I saw another post saying his parent's were not native Mennonite hence it was not a "Mennonite crime". This is ridiculous. "Didn't come from our fold".

I think it's about time to recognize that murderers come from all walks of life. Nobody approves of murder. Period.

What this is about is that many Ethnic Mennos don't want to admit that the good fruits sometimes falls very far from the tree, the fruit grew legs, ran down the hill, drops off the embankment, and lands in a cess pool.

The tree didn't produce bad fruit. The fruit chose to go bad. We still have freewill despite the source. I hope he fully repents deeply in his heart.

Menno molestations are no different than Catholic ones or public school teacher ones. Neither are Menno murders, Catholic murders, or night club murders, or Amish teen abortion murders.

If people REALLY want to go the ethnic argument here in this case, the Menno church should be dissolved immediately. There's plenty of ethnic crimes then that need to be amplified, and then the fruit admitted to be bad. Perhaps it's better to say there are horrible sins, we all need Christ, no Christian approves of murder, and good fruit can change heart and run away.

[Ken]

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

I agree with Aurien that it is problem for non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they are permanent outsiders. Wherever this happens, Mennonites have some repenting to do.
However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

I don't identify with Jan Matthys and the Muensterites, even though the authorities lumped my spiritual ancestors and the Muensterites all together and called them all Anabaptists.

I personally feel there's been enough discussion about Mennonite ethnicity on this particular thread. I'd prefer that the conversation about ethnicity moved elsewhere unless it pertains to Mark Gooch in some way.

To me it was all relevant to the topic of this thread but I can understand how that point got lost along the way.

The following is IF he is guilty->

Was Mark raised in a Mennonite church? Did he go to Mennonite school? Was he around Mennonites in his upbringing?

I saw another post saying his parent's were not native Mennonite hence it was not a "Mennonite crime". This is ridiculous. "Didn't come from our fold".

I think it's about time to recognize that murderers come from all walks of life. Nobody approves of murder. Period.

What this is about is that many Ethnic Mennos don't want to admit that the good fruits sometimes falls very far from the tree, the fruit grew legs, ran down the hill, drops off the embankment, and lands in a cess pool.

The tree didn't produce bad fruit. The fruit chose to go bad. We still have freewill despite the source. I hope he fully repents deeply in his heart.

Menno molestations are no different than Catholic ones or public school teacher ones. Neither are Menno murders, Catholic murders, or night club murders, or Amish teen abortion murders.

If people REALLY want to go the ethnic argument here in this case, the Menno church should be dissolved immediately. There's plenty of ethnic crimes then that need to be amplified, and then the fruit admitted to be bad. Perhaps it's better to say there are horrible sins, we all need Christ, no Christian approves of murder, and good fruit can change heart and run away.

I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusions yet. Clearly the Mennonite church is what links the victim and accused. Beyond that I'm not sure we know anything more.

Did he come across this woman at some point in real life and then just stalk and kidnap her because he was obsessed with her for reasons completely unrelated to the church? We don't know.

Did he have some deep-seated rage against something Mennonite in his past and then seek out a Mennonite victim for that reason? (apple falling far from the tree)? We don't know

Did he actually experience some real abuse from family or church that set him over the edge and on this path (tree itself was bad)? We don't know.

Beyond noticing the obvious Mennonite connection between victim and accused, I'm not sure what else there is to say. I expect it will all come out one way or the other during trial.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I agree with Aurien that it is problem for non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they are permanent outsiders. Wherever this happens, Mennonites have some repenting to do.
However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

I don't identify with Jan Matthys and the Muensterites, even though the authorities lumped my spiritual ancestors and the Muensterites all together and called them all Anabaptists.


To me it was all relevant to the topic of this thread but I can understand how that point got lost along the way.

The following is IF he is guilty->

Was Mark raised in a Mennonite church? Did he go to Mennonite school? Was he around Mennonites in his upbringing?

I saw another post saying his parent's were not native Mennonite hence it was not a "Mennonite crime". This is ridiculous. "Didn't come from our fold".

I think it's about time to recognize that murderers come from all walks of life. Nobody approves of murder. Period.

What this is about is that many Ethnic Mennos don't want to admit that the good fruits sometimes falls very far from the tree, the fruit grew legs, ran down the hill, drops off the embankment, and lands in a cess pool.

The tree didn't produce bad fruit. The fruit chose to go bad. We still have freewill despite the source. I hope he fully repents deeply in his heart.

Menno molestations are no different than Catholic ones or public school teacher ones. Neither are Menno murders, Catholic murders, or night club murders, or Amish teen abortion murders.

If people REALLY want to go the ethnic argument here in this case, the Menno church should be dissolved immediately. There's plenty of ethnic crimes then that need to be amplified, and then the fruit admitted to be bad. Perhaps it's better to say there are horrible sins, we all need Christ, no Christian approves of murder, and good fruit can change heart and run away.

I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusions yet. Clearly the Mennonite church is what links the victim and accused. Beyond that I'm not sure we know anything more.

Did he come across this woman at some point in real life and then just stalk and kidnap her because he was obsessed with her for reasons completely unrelated to the church? We don't know.

Did he have some deep-seated rage against something Mennonite in his past and then seek out a Mennonite victim for that reason? (apple falling far from the tree)? We don't know

Did he actually experience some real abuse from family or church that set him over the edge and on this path (tree itself was bad)? We don't know.

Beyond noticing the obvious Mennonite connection between victim and accused, I'm not sure what else there is to say. I expect it will all come out one way or the other during trial.

If he was interested, joining the military is not the way to get face time with a Mennonite gal. Likely we will know when we see the list of witnesses from the prosecution.

J.M.

[Ken]

The following is IF he is guilty->

Was Mark raised in a Mennonite church? Did he go to Mennonite school? Was he around Mennonites in his upbringing?

I saw another post saying his parent's were not native Mennonite hence it was not a "Mennonite crime". This is ridiculous. "Didn't come from our fold".

I think it's about time to recognize that murderers come from all walks of life. Nobody approves of murder. Period.

What this is about is that many Ethnic Mennos don't want to admit that the good fruits sometimes falls very far from the tree, the fruit grew legs, ran down the hill, drops off the embankment, and lands in a cess pool.

The tree didn't produce bad fruit. The fruit chose to go bad. We still have freewill despite the source. I hope he fully repents deeply in his heart.

Menno molestations are no different than Catholic ones or public school teacher ones. Neither are Menno murders, Catholic murders, or night club murders, or Amish teen abortion murders.

If people REALLY want to go the ethnic argument here in this case, the Menno church should be dissolved immediately. There's plenty of ethnic crimes then that need to be amplified, and then the fruit admitted to be bad. Perhaps it's better to say there are horrible sins, we all need Christ, no Christian approves of murder, and good fruit can change heart and run away.

I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusions yet. Clearly the Mennonite church is what links the victim and accused. Beyond that I'm not sure we know anything more.

Did he come across this woman at some point in real life and then just stalk and kidnap her because he was obsessed with her for reasons completely unrelated to the church? We don't know.

Did he have some deep-seated rage against something Mennonite in his past and then seek out a Mennonite victim for that reason? (apple falling far from the tree)? We don't know

Did he actually experience some real abuse from family or church that set him over the edge and on this path (tree itself was bad)? We don't know.

Beyond noticing the obvious Mennonite connection between victim and accused, I'm not sure what else there is to say. I expect it will all come out one way or the other during trial.

If he was interested, joining the military is not the way to get face time with a Mennonite gal. Likely we will know when we see the list of witnesses from the prosecution.

J.M.

I didn't mean interested in her in a "want to get to know her and date" sort of way.

I mean interested in a "psycho obsessive predator stalker" sort of way.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I don't think you can draw any sort of conclusions yet. Clearly the Mennonite church is what links the victim and accused. Beyond that I'm not sure we know anything more.

Did he come across this woman at some point in real life and then just stalk and kidnap her because he was obsessed with her for reasons completely unrelated to the church? We don't know.

Did he have some deep-seated rage against something Mennonite in his past and then seek out a Mennonite victim for that reason? (apple falling far from the tree)? We don't know

Did he actually experience some real abuse from family or church that set him over the edge and on this path (tree itself was bad)? We don't know.

Beyond noticing the obvious Mennonite connection between victim and accused, I'm not sure what else there is to say. I expect it will all come out one way or the other during trial.

If he was interested, joining the military is not the way to get face time with a Mennonite gal. Likely we will know when we see the list of witnesses from the prosecution.

J.M.

I didn't mean interested in her in a "want to get to know her and date" sort of way.

I mean interested in a "psycho obsessive predator stalker" sort of way.

Yes. INCEL culture is really brutal and not infrequently violent.

J.M.

[barnhart]

Yes. INCEL culture is really brutal and not infrequently violent.

J.M.

And growing apparently.

[ragpicker]

from a VERY off-the-beaten-path church compound on a dirt road in Farmington NM.

To bring some clarification because I keep seeing this repeated around the internet, that’s significantly overstated.

It’s a well known church in the local community as well as in the conservative Mennonite community.

It’s not off the beaten path. It’s along a fairly busy road that traverses between two busy four lane highways. It’s also in a fairly densely populated area.

It’s technically on a dirt road, but that dirt road is effectively a private lane. Actually, it sits at the intersection of two dirt lanes. A few hundred yards away is the fairly busy road referenced earlier. (The last few times I was out there I was shocked at how I had to wait for traffic to pull out on the road.)

I first started visiting there when it was everything you describe. The extremely washboarded, several miles long, dirt road to get to church was memorable. By the time I moved there in 1991, it was paved and much of the area surrounding the church where Jason G. and I roamed and hunted rabbits in was filled with mobile homes. Since then, the whole Mesa has filled up with homes, or so it seems.

Since I’m on a nostalgia kick, I helped my dad do the plumbing and heating in that church when I was a kid. We also did the same in the Gingerich Home when the addition was built. By the time I was 20, I had spent significantly more of my “away from home” time in the Farmington area, than all the rest combined. It became almost a second home, and then I moved there.

Enough of that... back to Mark...