Coronavirus Outbreak

[Ken]

Ken do you have any line on abortion developed treatments for anything?

No, I don’t object to stem cell research and testing as it is currently being conducted. I could imagine various hypotheticals to which I would object, just like I can imagine hypotheticals in every walk of life that I would find objectionable. But I don’t object to the current science or how the pharma industry uses existing stem cell lines.

[temporal1]

Soloist:
.. to be justified in your own position? to find holes in a stance? to convince us we need to not use any vaccines or medications?
Seems to me that you have had this explained a few times yet you still don't seem to understand. I find it hard to believe you look at all these sources and understand them better then most of the people here but can't understand the distinction I made. ..

one distinction of the example of using organs of murder victims is the presumption that the murderers are identified as criminals with serious attempts to stop them. they are not protected, promoted and rewarded with taxpayer funding.

human intellect has just enough ability to get itself into big problems.

[Bootstrap]

Do you really think all these drugs wouldn’t exist today without HEK-293?

Is using HEK-293 moral after the drug is first brought to market, and immoral only if it was used before the drug was on the market? I don't understand that reasoning. If you are morally opposed to HEK-293, do you want to be a customer of companies that use fetal cells for all kinds of research? Do you want to use drugs tested with HEK-293?

If you do believe that, what is your moral position in fetal stem cells? Because if all modern medicine rests upon fetal stem cells (which you are claiming), then a person who is opposed to abortion necessarily must reject modern medicine.

I oppose murder. I would accept a heart transplant from a murder victim - unless the person was murdered in order to harvest his organs. I feel the same way about abortion and fetal cells. I can't save that baby who died in the 1970s, but lives can be saved today.

!!! SNIP !!!
Boot your position is as long as the mother doesn't know about the research/use prior to choosing to abort, you don't care what is done with the organs/tissues/cells. Is that accurate? would you also feel the same about getting replacement organs from abortion? Do you have a line?

Those are your words, not mine. It's not my position. And it's not how Covid-19 vaccines are developed.

You often use phrases like "those who have compromised" against others. To me, it seems like you have your own compromises with HEK-293. So far, I have only had to decide with respect to HEK-293, and I have decided that I cannot save that child from the 1970s, but I can act in ways that may save the lives of others today. And perhaps my own life.

That's really the only position I have taken. You have spent a lot of energy criticizing positions you imagine me taking in the future. I haven't taken those positions. None of those issues have been real for me, I have not had to make moral decisions about any of them. And it takes me time and effort to sort through questions like these.

I'm not trying to shoot you down. But I think you also find this a little less black-and-white than you sometimes imply. You also have to draw lines that may seem arbitrary. So far, I have decided that HEK-293 testing is within the lines for me.

[Soloist]

Those are your words, not mine. It's not my position. And it's not how Covid-19 vaccines are developed.

You so often attempt to phrase things in your words and ask if you understand the other's opinion. Can't you see what you do as reasonable?

You often use phrases like "those who have compromised" against others. To me, it seems like you have your own compromises with HEK-293. So far, I have only had to decide with respect to HEK-293, and I have decided that I cannot save that child from the 1970s, but I can act in ways that may save the lives of others today. And perhaps my own life.

And the other vaccines grown on fetal cells? you took those vaccines with ignorance? You specifically are practicing avoidance on the questions. You point out what you see as hypocrisy and decline to publicly state if you ever would care about this issue in the future. What is wrong about this? What part do you not agree to?

Boot your position is as long as the mother doesn't know about the research/use prior to choosing to abort, you don't care what is done with the organs/tissues/cells. Is that accurate? would you also feel the same about getting replacement organs from abortion? Do you have a line?

There is three questions there and I'm asking what you believe. Sidestepping by saying its not your position is not constructive and doesn't lead me to believe you are interested in dialog of learning another's position.

That's really the only position I have taken. You have spent a lot of energy criticizing positions you imagine me taking in the future. I haven't taken those positions. None of those issues have been real for me, I have not had to make moral decisions about any of them. And it takes me time and effort to sort through questions like these.

You have already made moral decisions about MRC-5, WI-38, and HEK-293. I'm asking about future. As far as taking time to sort through the questions, based on past politics, seems like you come to conclusions much faster if its relevant to you.

I'm not trying to shoot you down. But I think you also find this a little less black-and-white than you sometimes imply. You also have to draw lines that may seem arbitrary. So far, I have decided that HEK-293 testing is within the lines for me.

And vaccines grown on fetal cells you accepted as well as medications.

Can we split these off as they really don't pertain to covid?

[Josh]

Boot,

Are you claiming that taking an aspirin or Tums means I’m “accepting” fetal stem cell research?

Could you answer my questions first? I can't really answer yours until I understand what moral distinctions you are making.

My position is not to use new drugs developed using fetal stem cells. This includes most (but not all) modern therapies in the last 10-20 years. (For example, Humira was not developed this way, but as far as I know all other monoclonal antibodies were.)

I simply assume 100% of newly developed drugs use stem cells now. Unfortunately this means I need to avoid them all.

If a drug was developed prior to fetal stem cell research even exisiting, like aspirin (1899) or Tums (1928), I have zero moral objections to using it.

The fact experimentation may have taken place since then seems irrelevant to me; those arguing against me on that see to me to be arguing in bad faith.

[Josh]

Ken do you have any line on abortion developed treatments for anything?

No, I don’t object to stem cell research and testing as it is currently being conducted. I could imagine various hypotheticals to which I would object, just like I can imagine hypotheticals in every walk of life that I would find objectionable. But I don’t object to the current science or how the pharma industry uses existing stem cell lines.

Would you object to using organ transplants harvested from an aborted foetus?

[Josh]

Boot,

Are you claiming that taking an aspirin or Tums means I’m “accepting” fetal stem cell research?

No. It means you are buying a product from a company that used fetal stem cells to test the product you are buying.

Whether you choose to “accept” that fact is irrelevant. And whether that testing occurred before or after the product is brought to market is also irrelevant.

Tums were invented in 1928, and are literally chalk.

Could you enlighten me how eating a piece of chalk means I’m involved in foetal stem cell harvesting and testing?

[Ken]

Boot,

Are you claiming that taking an aspirin or Tums means I’m “accepting” fetal stem cell research?

No. It means you are buying a product from a company that used fetal stem cells to test the product you are buying.

Whether you choose to “accept” that fact is irrelevant. And whether that testing occurred before or after the product is brought to market is also irrelevant.

Tums were invented in 1928, and are literally chalk.

Could you enlighten me how eating a piece of chalk means I’m involved in foetal stem cell harvesting and testing?

If you go eat a piece of chalk then you are not.

On the other hand, if you go buy a bottle of TUMS then you are doing business with GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturer of TUMS who uses stem cell testing to insure that TUMS and most all of its medicinal products meet modern safety standards. It is the same exact thing that they do with new products under development. They are running the same exact tests whether the product in question is already on the market or still under development.

Why do companies do testing of seemingly mundane products that are already on the market? To avoid this sort of thing: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/01/supreme ... nalty.html

[Josh]

No. It means you are buying a product from a company that used fetal stem cells to test the product you are buying.

Whether you choose to “accept” that fact is irrelevant. And whether that testing occurred before or after the product is brought to market is also irrelevant.

Tums were invented in 1928, and are literally chalk.

Could you enlighten me how eating a piece of chalk means I’m involved in foetal stem cell harvesting and testing?

If you go eat a piece of chalk then you are not.

On the other hand, if you go buy a bottle of TUMS then you are doing business with GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturer of TUMS who uses stem cell testing to insure that TUMS and most all of its medicinal products meet modern safety standards. It is the same exact thing that they do with new products under development. They are running the same exact tests whether the product in question is already on the market or still under development.

Why do companies do testing of seemingly mundane products that are already on the market? To avoid this sort of thing: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/01/supreme ... nalty.html

Morally speaking, I would never sue a drug manufacturer. (Interestingly, nobody else is allowed to sue vaccine manufacturers either.)

Fetal stem cell testing is irrelevant to producing most well established drugs. You keep throwing out this red herring, and it’s irrelevant. Tums are literally chalk.

Can you point to how off brand Tums are developed and produced using foetal stem cells?

[Bootstrap]

You often use phrases like "those who have compromised" against others. To me, it seems like you have your own compromises with HEK-293. So far, I have only had to decide with respect to HEK-293, and I have decided that I cannot save that child from the 1970s, but I can act in ways that may save the lives of others today. And perhaps my own life.

And the other vaccines grown on fetal cells? you took those vaccines with ignorance? You specifically are practicing avoidance on the questions.You point out what you see as hypocrisy and decline to publicly state if you ever would care about this issue in the future. What is wrong about this? What part do you not agree to?

I said your stand seems inconsistent to me, I did not not accuse you of hypocrisy. Previously you implied I was "condemning" you by saying it seemed inconsistent. I think you have explained your position, it still seems inconsistent to me, obviously not to you. I hope we can see things differently without condemning or accusing the other of hypocrisy.

Before the Covid-19 vaccine, I was not aware that fetal cells were involved in vaccine manufacture. I am now. And I do not object to using a vaccine tested with HEK-293 if it can save lives and there is no alternative. I will almost certainly take other vaccines in the future, I expect that I will follow the guidance of the Catholic Church and the Loizeaux Society. As you say, you have to draw a line somewhere, and so do I.

I doubt very much that my choices or yours will actually change what the drug industry does. You seem to think it will. That's another difference.

To me, a lot of the other questions you raise are about hypothetical things that may or may not occur in the future. But I don't think they guide the decisions I make about HEK-293 today.