Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[MattY]

Israel is absolutely open to criticism, particularly Netanyahu and his government. Israel will need to have a tough internal reckoning over the failures here, and according to that editorial, it has already begun. The failure to prevent the attacks lies squarely on Netanyahu. I don't normally agree with Vox very often, but this article is well written and the events of the last few days make it clear to me that Netanyahu's ideological vision - he was known as "Mr. Security" - is a failure. Trying to crush the Palestinians through settlement and division has failed spectacularly.

https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu- ... ar-history

But this paragraph is worth quoting as well, for full clarity:

"To be clear: I am not saying Israelis brought these attacks on themselves, that it’s some kind of moral chickens coming home to roost. Nor am I saying that Netanyahu, in place of Hamas, bears moral responsibility for Hamas’s horrifying atrocities against civilians."

Nothing justifies terrorism and all of the responsibility, in a moral sense, for the attacks, the murders, the rapes, must be laid at Hamas's feet and nowhere else. The moral equivocation going on in much of the left, and probably some of the antisemitic hardline right, in the supposedly civilized world, is shocking.

People look at this barbarism and immediately look for ways to morally equivocate, or at worst, celebrate it.


A rally in New York, hosted by Democratic Socialists of America, literally cheered and joked about the attacks. A Muslim protest in Australia chanted "gas the Jews" and "**** the Jews".

[Josh]

People look at this barbarism and immediately look for ways to morally equivocate, or at worst, celebrate it.

It’s not “morally equivocating” to observe that Palestinians have been living under siege for a long time and they get rockets and bombs rained down on them on a rather regular basis. The best they can hope for is to live as second class citizens in an apartheid state.

An attack like happened this week is a cornered dog that occasionally bites back.

[Bootstrap]

Israel is absolutely open to criticism, particularly Netanyahu and his government. Israel will need to have a tough internal reckoning over the failures here, and according to that editorial, it has already begun. The failure to prevent the attacks lies squarely on Netanyahu. I don't normally agree with Vox very often, but this article is well written and the events of the last few days make it clear to me that Netanyahu's ideological vision - he was known as "Mr. Security" - is a failure. Trying to crush the Palestinians through settlement and division has failed spectacularly.

I agree with these paragraphs from that article:

The notion that Israel can deliver security for its citizens by dividing and conquering Palestinians, crushing them into submission as a kind of colonial overlord, is both immoral and counterproductive on its own terms. Recognizing this reality will be crucial to formulating not only a humane response to Hamas’s atrocity, but an effective one.

Smotrich has used his time in Netanyahu’s cabinet to try to implement this plan — working both to de facto annex the West Bank and to rapidly expand Jewish settlement. The result has been the exact opposite of what Smotrich thought would happen: Atrocities by emboldened settler extremists ignited Palestinian anger. Atrocities committed by Palestinians led to settler retaliation, creating an unstable situation requiring a significant redeployment of Israel Defense Forces resources to the West Bank — whose raids themselves became a source of Palestinian grievance.

And that, per the Washington Post, is why those troops weren’t on Gaza’s border. Israel’s forces, who should have been defending against terrorists in Gaza, had been dragged to the West Bank as a consequence, at least in part, of the far right’s ideological project.

Here are links from that previous paragraph:

https://www.972mag.com/settlements-road ... -smotrich/
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023 ... government
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023 ... government
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/20/11832786 ... settlement

[Bootstrap]

No matter what, the barbaric ISIS type executions and tapes of even children and the celebration of such in mo way could be defended.
Apparently most haven't seen the horrid footage of children, civilians, elderly taken hostage killed and raped.

I think there is clear evidence that Palestinian terrorists have kidnapped children, civilians, and elderly. And there's no justification for that. Also no justification for Israel to demolish Palestinian civilian apartment buildings and homes and slaughter civilians who did not do these things. Or for the way that Israel has been treating Palestinians for a very long time. Both sides are deeply guilty. And violence builds on violence.

I wouldn't trust the videos that circulate on the Internet in any war unless they are verified by people who know what they are doing first. Time and time again, they turn out to be faked in order to support one side's point of view. In any war, there are tons of wartime propaganda. These days, mostly videos.

Let's pray and look for ways to offer mercy.

[Bootstrap]

The Anabaptist view is that believers shouldn’t be getting involved in things like wars.

Amen.

Except to offer aid to the victims. And certainly to offer prayer.

[Valerie]

No matter what, the barbaric ISIS type executions and tapes of even children and the celebration of such in mo way could be defended.
Apparently most haven't seen the horrid footage of children, civilians, elderly taken hostage killed and raped.

I think there is clear evidence that Palestinian terrorists have kidnapped children, civilians, and elderly. And there's no justification for that. Also no justification for Israel to demolish Palestinian civilian apartment buildings and homes and slaughter civilians who did not do these things. Or for the way that Israel has been treating Palestinians for a very long time. Both sides are deeply guilty. And violence builds on violence.

I wouldn't trust the videos that circulate on the Internet in any war unless they are verified by people who know what they are doing first. Time and time again, they turn out to be faked in order to support one side's point of view. In any war, there are tons of wartime propaganda. These days, mostly videos.

Let's pray and look for ways to offer mercy.

Definitely pray. IWe need to pray to discern too.
Videos we've been watching are on the news not internet but as we know whichever news source we rely on most can have bias.

God is Sovereign. We have the Old Testament to reveal how barbaric man can be, even to children. Praying is our best approach presently

[Judas Maccabeus]

What is stopping Egypt from opening their Gaza border? Is South Korea “under siege? They are blocked by North Korea.

Nothing other than the fact that no Arab state has ever wanted to take any Palestinian refugees EVER.

For the simple reason that it has always been in their interest to see the situation fester in Israel. They don't want to be an escape valve for Israeli expansionist and settler policies.

No. Actually Jordan has taken wave upon wave of refugees. So much that it almost broke the country politically in 1970. Ever hear of Black September? Jordan is resource poor, and seriously constrained as far as resources. Its limited agricultural land must be irrigated to produce, and the Israel is taking far more than its ready limits. While they may not have wanted to take refugees, which now constitute almost 50% of the population, they have.

How do I know this stuff? Used to live there, daughter taught there for 5 years.

[MaxPC]

Back to the original post:
Fact: Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, murdered, raped and killed with devastating violence as proven by their own videos of their atrocities.
Fact: Iran has proclaimed on several notable occasions they want Israel destroyed. They have admitted to planning and coordinating this attack from both Hamas and Hezbollah.

Regardless of how anyone feels about Israel and the Palestinians, the simple history is that if the Palestinians want to be treated well and have their own nation state, then they need to stop committing violence against others and stop allowing Iran to agitate them into committing these acts. They have now lost all credibility within diplomatic circles. Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

At this point however, they have thrown that credibility away for this generation.

[Josh]

Back to the original post:
Fact: Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, murdered, raped and killed with devastating violence as proven by their own videos of their atrocities.
Fact: Iran has proclaimed on several notable occasions they want Israel destroyed. They have admitted to planning and coordinating this attack from both Hamas and Hezbollah.

Regardless of how anyone feels about Israel and the Palestinians, the simple history is that if the Palestinians want to be treated well and have their own nation state, then they need to stop committing violence against others and stop allowing Iran to agitate them into committing these acts. They have now lost all credibility within diplomatic circles. Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

At this point however, they have thrown that credibility away for this generation.

As a general rule, when there are two neighbouring countries that are very hostile towards each other... the one with the stronger military/economy is going to win.

Israel's other neighbours like Jordan and Egypt (and now KSA) have made peace. Lebanon has been in a stable truce for a while. Syria has avoided getting into conflicts, although I would not say they are in a state of peace or a truce.

But the Gaza - Israel relationship is very hot and violent.

[Bootstrap]

Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

There is no military solution for either side. There are plenty of atrocities on both sides.

Israel has taken a two-state solution completely off the table. Israel has refused to give Palestinians full citizenship and full rights within Israel. Israel continues to occupy large portions of Palestinian territory that legally does not belong to it. Israel has built settlements in land that still legally belongs to Palestine. Netanyahu is trying to disable the Israeli Supreme Court so that Palestinians can have even fewer rights. Israel is basically saying "might makes right". So what is that diplomacy and communication supposed to be about?

I would like to see the international community say, loudly, that they refuse to support either side unless and until they enter into negotiations.