Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ken]

Here come the sanctions.

In my mind, sanctions actually serve two separate purposes.

The first purpose is the geopolitical one. And our experience with North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and previous Russian sanctions suggests that they rarely if ever have much effect on dictatorial regimes who would rather see their countries descend into economic basket cases rather than budge. I suspect any new sanctions on Russia will be equally ineffectual in terms of changing Russian policies. I expect Putin is more likely to turn his country into Venezuela rather than give one inch to the west.

The second purpose of sanctions is to say that we will not be a party to waging war or oppression around the world. Sanctions are in, effect, the international version of Mennonites who refuse to pay war taxes. The Russian economy relies on trade with the west to fuel its war machine. And the extent to which we continue to do business with Russian banks, take Russian money, buy Russian fossil fuels, and trade with Russia only helps Russia wage its wars. There is a compelling moral case to be made for cutting economic relations with countries that wage wars of conquest and oppression. Simply to say that we will not use our resources and economies to support and further those actions.

[Robert]

The second purpose of sanctions is to say that we will not be a party to waging war or oppression around the world.

Should the US sanction itself for the involvement in Ukrainian politics over the past 10 years?

The US government is not innocent in all this.

[Ken]

This is an interesting development if true

[temporal1]

6 pages in 4 hours. this is destined to be a lengthy topic.

[Ken]

The second purpose of sanctions is to say that we will not be a party to waging war or oppression around the world.

Should the US sanction itself for the involvement in Ukrainian politics over the past 10 years?

The US government is not innocent in all this.

I'm not claiming that the US government is innocent of anything in Ukraine or anywhere else in the world from Iraq to Afghanistan.

I'm simply pointing out that there are two separate arguments in favor of economic sanctions in the face of military aggression. The first is the geopolitical one that rarely works. The second is the moral one which is simply saying that we won't lend our economic resources to support wars of aggression.

And I expect the strongest arguments against sanctions will come from the wealthy US and European financial interests who profit the most from taking Russian money.

[mike]

this is silly. They are being quick and effective at suppressing Ukraine's military assets. I would expect the majority of the Ukraine fighting forces to be neutralized in a matter of days.

We will spend days arguing and then decide to do nothing other then strongly worded letters, ie sanctions.

It could be silly for all I know. Senator Rubio is on the Select Committee on Intelligence (Ranking Member) and the Committee on Foreign Relations, so I thought it was worth noting what he is saying.

[mike]

[Ken]

Anti-war protests break out across Russia

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine ... ts-1682295

Protesters in cities across Russia have risked arrest and voiced their opposition to the invasion of Ukraine by Moscow-led forces.

The OVD-Info rights group, which monitors political arrests in Russia, said that as of Thursday evening, more than 235 people had been detained in 29 cities.

Rallies took place across many time zones, and those detained hailed from cities ranging from from the enclave of Kaliningrad on the edge of Europe to the far eastern city of Vladivostok.

There were also protests in cities including Yekaterinburg, the Siberian city of Novosibirsk and the capital Moscow.

Footage of the protests, which were of varying sizes, were shared on social media and showed people holding signs and chanting "No to war!"

[Josh]

Where in our Anabaptist 2 Kingdom reading of the Bible do we read that inherent human right or that rationale for the legitimacy of government? I am asking this seriously, not snarkily. It might be a better way to form worldly governments (at times) but it's not without its limits - nevertheless I'd be careful to elevate it to a kind of right that all humans possess...I just don't understand that kind of language from an Anabaptist perspective.

I would say that is the general understanding of natural law and in the West, or at least it used to be.

As far as Anabaptists ourselves, we don't get any rights of self-determination or the opportunity to set up our own kingdoms. I am simply saying this is how the rest of the non-Anabaptist world works. Neither Russia nor the Ukraine are Anabaptist kingdoms.

Likewise, I would say everyone has the right to self-defence; Anabaptists simply don't exercise that right. But that doesn't mean that right doesn't exist.

[Josh]

This is an interesting development if true

So far, the Ukraine's govenrment seems to have hired the Iraqi Information Minister as a consultant and is just spewing rumours and half-truths. They can't exactly claim they are marching to victory when they've lost control of Kiev's military airport. This kind of talk is par for the course of Ukranian ultranationalists, by the way.