Female students assaulted by transgender students in bathroom

[MaxPC]

Would you give the same advice to all the conservatives in my more centrist community who are unhappy with mask mandates, vaccine mandates, and policies that are supportive of LGBT citizens, social justice, etc? Opinions and positions in which they are in the clear minority? Just get out and move to Idaho or Mississippi?

It depends on how large the conservative contingent is in numbers. If they are a small minority my answer is indeed, yes. E.g. For a number of years now there has been a steady conservative exodus out of California and other communities on the left coast. They found communities that are in better resonance with their values.

That is the genius of the US Constitution. We have the freedom to move. As this applies to one individual in a small rural community, this individual has the freedom to relocate if he is that unhappy. At the end of the day that individual needs to assume responsibility for his choices and actions just as God has directed us all to do: it is called Free Will. If miserable, move. In the same vein, communities also have the freedom to choose those values, (yes, conservative values included) they wish to live by.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it actually guarantee the freedom to move. And many people indeed do not have that freedom for any number of reasons.

But the Constitution does guarantee equal protection under the law, even if you are gay or LGBT.

It does indeed provide that freedom to move. It’s called life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As for your assertion re protection, conservatives are also protected ... except in those places where destruction is raging in the streets. In those places, I advocate moving. Ken, don’t try to twist words to provide a rationale for homosexuals: as Ragpicker notes, that is not an honest way to discuss matters. You are quite adamant about homosexual rights even when they tread on the equally protected rights of Biblical beliefs: are you yourself homosexual?

[Ken]

I wasn't talking about kids who are heterosexual. I was talking about kids who believe your body knows what gender it is and say so. Even if they are respectful to those who disagree.

My children went to a school where teachers taught an understanding of sexuality in which birth gender and your real gender were different things. Children who openly said they believe that your body knows what gender it is were looked down on by some children. Peer pressure and groupthink are real.

So walk me through how this actually works in real life. One of your children happen to be in a class with a transgender or LGBT student.

If and when the subject comes up your children feel compelled to state that they don't believe transgenderism (or any type of LGBT) is real. So therefore your child is claiming that their classmate is what? a liar? delusional? mentally ill? sinning? a fraud?

Is that what you consider being respectful to your fellow classmates? Accusing them of being liars, sinners, delusional, or mentally ill?

[Bootstrap]

I wasn't talking about kids who are heterosexual. I was talking about kids who believe your body knows what gender it is and say so. Even if they are respectful to those who disagree.

My children went to a school where teachers taught an understanding of sexuality in which birth gender and your real gender were different things. Children who openly said they believe that your body knows what gender it is were looked down on by some children. Peer pressure and groupthink are real.

So walk me through how this actually works in real life. One of your children happen to be in a class with a transgender or LGBT student.

A sex-ed class, which teaches that your birth gender is not the same thing as your real gender. Or someone asks my child to come to the Gay-Straight Alliance club. And my child has to figure out how to respond to that.

If and when the subject comes up your children feel compelled to state that they don't believe transgenderism (or any type of LGBT) is real. So therefore your child is claiming that their classmate is what? a liar? delusional? mentally ill? sinning? a fraud?

A male? A female? A "he"? A "she"? But that can be just as controversial.

In most classes, children are invited to voice their opinions and experiences. But in some sex-ed classes, these opinions and experiences are not welcomed, this is doctrine. If the child does not want to come to GSA, people may ask why. There is peer pressure. Kids are put on the defense. They may gang up on social media. And this is a very sensitive time in kid's identities.

Children may be told that it is abusive to call someone born male "he", and treated like they are doing something terribly wrong. But they may not feel they can call that other child "she" in good conscience. And other kids may take offense and exclude them.

Is that what you consider being respectful to your fellow classmates? Accusing them of being liars, sinners, delusional, or mentally ill?

I would like to be able to tell people, respectfully, that they live in their bodies, their bodies are good, their bodies know what gender they are, and just as it's good to learn to listen to your body in other ways, it's good to learn to live in the body that God gave you. As a child, in that kind of setting, it's much harder. I don't really want children I love to learn about their sexuality in that kind of setting because I think it is badly mistaken.

So now my child is caught in the middle between my beliefs and the school's beliefs. Which is a very difficult place to be. I don't want my child in that place. I don't want to be in that place with my child. Especially if you respond by telling people we are accusing other children of being liars, sinners, delusional, or mentally ill - I don't need that polarization in my life either.

I do want to raise my own children according to my values and my world view.

[Ken]

It does indeed provide that freedom to move. It’s called life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As for your assertion re protection, conservatives are also protected ... except in those places where destruction is raging in the streets. In those places, I advocate moving. Ken, don’t try to twist words to provide a rationale for homosexuals: as Ragpicker notes, that is not an honest way to discuss matters. You are quite adamant about homosexual rights even when they tread on the equally protected rights of Biblical beliefs: are you yourself homosexual?

People are not free to move for any number of hundreds of reasons. They may have family obligations. They may have custody agreements and children in local schools. They may have have professional reasons. A lot of state professional licensing requirements are not easily transferrable between states. I have family who are dairy farmers. Moving your dairy farm from Oregon to say....Wyoming is not so simple.

So yes, I disagree with you that the best option is to simply pick up and move if your neighbors are hostile. We live in a diverse country that respects and guarantees minority rights. Whether you are a racial or ethnic minority, a religious minority, a political minority, or a minority based on your sexuality.

And no, I'm not gay. I'm married and have three kids. Does believing in equal rights for LGBT people make me gay? I also believe in civil rights for African-Americans. Does that make me Black? And I believe in religious freedom for religious minorities. Does that make me a Muslim? Sheesh.

Anabaptists are actually a minority in pretty much every single part of this country except perhaps Holmes County OH and Mifflin County PA. Should Anabaptists from across the country move to those locations so they can be in the majority? Or should maybe their rights be protected and respected wherever they live? I'm simply applying that principal to ALL Americans, not just with whom I happen to agree or approve of.

[Ken]

I wasn't talking about kids who are heterosexual. I was talking about kids who believe your body knows what gender it is and say so. Even if they are respectful to those who disagree.

My children went to a school where teachers taught an understanding of sexuality in which birth gender and your real gender were different things. Children who openly said they believe that your body knows what gender it is were looked down on by some children. Peer pressure and groupthink are real.

So walk me through how this actually works in real life. One of your children happen to be in a class with a transgender or LGBT student.

A sex-ed class, which teaches that your birth gender is not the same thing as your real gender. Or someone asks my child to come to the Gay-Straight Alliance club. And my child has to figure out how to respond to that.

If and when the subject comes up your children feel compelled to state that they don't believe transgenderism (or any type of LGBT) is real. So therefore your child is claiming that their classmate is what? a liar? delusional? mentally ill? sinning? a fraud?

A male? A female? A "he"? A "she"? But that can be just as controversial.

In most classes, children are invited to voice their opinions and experiences. But in some sex-ed classes, these opinions and experiences are not welcomed, this is doctrine. If the child does not want to come to GSA, people may ask why. There is peer pressure. Kids are put on the defense. They may gang up on social media. And this is a very sensitive time in kid's identities.

Children may be told that it is abusive to call someone born male "he", and treated like they are doing something terribly wrong. But they may not feel they can call that other child "she" in good conscience. And other kids may take offense and exclude them.

Is that what you consider being respectful to your fellow classmates? Accusing them of being liars, sinners, delusional, or mentally ill?

I would like to be able to tell people, respectfully, that they live in their bodies, their bodies are good, their bodies know what gender they are, and just as it's good to learn to listen to your body in other ways, it's good to learn to live in the body that God gave you. As a child, in that kind of setting, it's much harder. I don't really want children I love to learn about their sexuality in that kind of setting because I think it is badly mistaken.

So now my child is caught in the middle between my beliefs and the school's beliefs. Which is a very difficult place to be. I don't want my child in that place. I don't want to be in that place with my child. Especially if you respond by telling people we are accusing other children of being liars, sinners, delusional, or mentally ill - I don't need that polarization in my life either.

I do want to raise my own children according to my values and my world view.

It is all well and good to pretend that LGBT people don't really exist. Which is apparently what you are teaching your children. But when they encounter them in real life. And they will encounter them no matter how much you try to shelter them. They will be faced with dealing with actual real people who say "this is who I am". Whether it happens in the schools or some other realm of life. It will happen. And your children will be faced with the choice to either: (1) choose to respect them and treat them as they wish to be treated, or (2) choose not to respect them because they believe what? that they are violating Gods will? Are you really teaching your kids to deliberately mis-gender their LGBT classmates if they happen to have a trans classmate? And you think that is being respectful?

This not just theoretical. This is real life and about how you treat others. I actually suspect your kids know this better than you do.

[Bootstrap]

I do want to raise my own children according to my values and my world view.

It is all well and good to pretend that LGBT people don't really exist. Which is apparently what you are teaching your children.

No, not at all. And your inability to hear what I am actually saying and take it seriously is one of the reasons I probably would not want you teaching my children.

You probably don't even realize how much you are distorting what I am saying. I don't think you are making a serious attempt to respond to the things I have said. If my children's teachers do the same, I don't want them in that school.

[Ken]

I do want to raise my own children according to my values and my world view.

It is all well and good to pretend that LGBT people don't really exist. Which is apparently what you are teaching your children.

No, not at all. And your inability to hear what I am actually saying and take it seriously is one of the reasons I probably would not want you teaching my children.

You probably don't even realize how much you are distorting what I am saying. I don't think you are making a serious attempt to respond to the things I have said. If my children's teachers do the same, I don't want them in that school.

What I perceive you to be saying is that you are teaching your children that gender and sexuality are assigned at birth by God [or technically I suppose not at birth but at the moment of conception]. Is that correct? Or am I distorting what you are saying? If so, how?

And when your children come into contact with others who say. "No, for me that isn't true, this is actually who I am." And they will. You are teaching them to respond how?

[Bootstrap]

What I perceive you to be saying is that you are teaching your children that gender is assigned at birth by God [or technically I suppose not at birth but at the moment of conception]. Is that correct? Or am I distorting what you are saying? If so, how?

"Gender is assigned at birth" is already pretty foreign to the way I think. For one thing, XX or XY happens at conception, not at birth. And I don't think gender is "assigned" at all, I think it is a characteristic of the human body. As a trail runner and a somewhat serious cyclist, I teach my children to listen to their bodies and learn from their bodies.

My arms were not assigned to me at birth. My eyes were not assigned to me at birth. That's not really how bodies work.

And when your children come into contact with others who say. "No, for me that isn't true, this is actually who I am" you are teaching them to respond how?

My children are grown, so this is no longer something I teach them at all. But suppose you were to say "my arms are not who I am" or "my eyes are not who I am". Who decides whether that is true or not, and how?

If you don't feel like you are in the right body, whose body should you have instead? Is the solution to change your mind or to change your body? And is adolescence a time that children can make these decisions wisely, with all the social media and peer pressure? I mean seriously, do most adolescents have a well-developed sense of who they are?

I would want my children to understand this perspective. I would want to tell them that God knew what he was doing when he made their bodies. How should they respond to other children in today's schools? I have no idea, and I don't think you have given me anything to help me navigate that yet. Which is why I suspect that my children and your children just might do better in different schools.

I'm guessing you would not want to allow my perspective to be taught at your school. Not even as one of several perspectives.

[Ken]

What I perceive you to be saying is that you are teaching your children that gender is assigned at birth by God [or technically I suppose not at birth but at the moment of conception]. Is that correct? Or am I distorting what you are saying? If so, how?

"Gender is assigned at birth" is already pretty foreign to the way I think. For one thing, XX or XY happens at conception, not at birth. And I don't think gender is "assigned" at all, I think it is a characteristic of the human body. As a trail runner and a somewhat serious cyclist, I teach my children to listen to their bodies and learn from their bodies.

My arms were not assigned to me at birth. My eyes were not assigned to me at birth. That's not really how bodies work.

And when your children come into contact with others who say. "No, for me that isn't true, this is actually who I am" you are teaching them to respond how?

My children are grown, so this is no longer something I teach them at all. But suppose you were to say "my arms are not who I am" or "my eyes are not who I am". Who decides whether that is true or not, and how?

If you don't feel like you are in the right body, whose body should you have instead? Is the solution to change your mind or to change your body? And is adolescence a time that children can make these decisions wisely, with all the social media and peer pressure? I mean seriously, do most adolescents have a well-developed sense of who they are?

I would want my children to understand this perspective. I would want to tell them that God knew what he was doing when he made their bodies. How should they respond to other children in today's schools? I have no idea, and I don't think you have given me anything to help me navigate that yet. Which is why I suspect that my children and your children just might do better in different schools.

I'm guessing you would not want to allow my perspective to be taught at your school. Not even as one of several perspectives.

Fine, if you don't like the word "assigned" how about the word "determined" Is it accurate to say that you believe that a person's gender and sexuality are DETERMINED by God at the moment of conception? Or maybe the word "selected?" I don't want to get into a semantic argument about the word "assigned". I'm just asking if it is your belief that both gender and sexuality are something that is determined by God at the moment of conception?

And regardless of what you actually believe about gender and sexuality. I personally I see this as no different from any other belief that might be shared by some and not others. We all go through our daily lives constantly encountering others who do not share our beliefs and values. I teach my kids to treat everyone they encounter with respect and kindness. And part of that is treating others how they wish to be treated. It is a pretty simple and universal concept and not at all limited to LGBT people, or a courtesy to which they should be excluded. I would teach my children to be kind and respectful to everyone they encounter whether it is Amish or Muslim kids in funny clothes and with funny accents, Black, Hispanic, or Asian kids who might not look, dress, or talk like them, Disabled kids who may need special attention or act out in strange and uncomfortable ways, Kids who hold other strange beliefs like Mormons [we have a LOT of Mormons around here] and yes, LGBT kids as well.

[Bootstrap]

Fine, if you don't like the word "assigned" how about the word "determined" Is it accurate to say that you believe that a person's gender and sexuality are DETERMINED by God at the moment of conception? Or maybe the word "selected?" I don't want to get into a semantic argument about the word "assigned". I'm just asking if it is your belief that both gender and sexuality are something that is determined by God at the moment of conception?

What's wrong with the words and concepts I used? If you want to understand what I am saying, can you try responding to the sentences I used, using the same words and concepts?

All this language about "assigned" and "determined" and what moment ... is just gobbledygook to me. Was your nose "assigned" to you by God at the moment of conception? Or "selected"? It's much simpler and clearer to say that you have a body, your body is good, and that's the body you live in. Who you are is not distinct from the body you live in. This is the root of how I see it.

If you think you have an identity that is not compatible with your body, the problem really might be your thinking.

And part of that is treating others how they wish to be treated. It is a pretty simple and universal concept and not at all limited to LGBT people, or a courtesy to which they should be excluded. I would teach my children to be kind and respectful to everyone they encounter whether it is Amish or Muslim kids in funny clothes and with funny accents, Black, Hispanic, or Asian kids who might not look, dress, or talk like them, Disabled kids who may need special attention or act out in strange and uncomfortable ways, Kids who hold other strange beliefs like Mormons [we have a LOT of Mormons around here] and yes, LGBT kids as well.

I agree that we should treat people with kindness and respect. But I don't think that means we have to agree with them or act like we do. I doubt that your school has classes that talk about whether Mormonism is right or wrong or whether Islam is right or wrong. I doubt that anyone is asked to talk as though they agree with Islam or Christianity. But I bet your sex ed classes teach all this gobbledygook about "assigned" and "selected" and how trans is the right way to think of this. Trans has been given a privileged status in many schools.