Natural Immunity

[Josh]

This is my understanding so far: Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​ Cases of COVID-19 among vaccinated people have also been reported, but remain rare. There's a lot we don't know yet.

Well your understanding is just plain wrong.

Possibly. But I think waiting a few months to find out is probably more productive than what we are doing now.

I really don't get how you can throw these kind of completely inane statements out, while complaining constantly about those of us who follow the data for not "listening to experts".

With respect, I don't see you following the data in these discussions, responding to questions I ask you about the data you cite, etc. I do see you throwing around lots of strong adjectives like "inane" and misrepresenting my positions.

I think it's time for me to disengage with that.

Boot, you’ve been presented with excellent data, published research, and anecdotes. Your answer keeps being “well we can’t know for sure” or “we need to wait a few more months”.

If you want to express that kind of uncertainty, I hear you. But will you apply the same kind of uncertainty to a vaccine that hasn’t been tested enough that we even know the data?

[Wade]

I think some of us from growing up as atheists really see something different here. If Christian's just support the worlds system of unethical vaccines we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there. So until you stop agreeing with the world I don't think we have much hope in calling people into the kingdom of God - that is a real burden to me. I don't care who is right here but the message all you vaccine supporters are sending to all my extended family who are in the world is that God has nothing more to offer than man has to offer them.

[Ken]

I think some of us from growing up as atheists really see something different here. If Christian's just support the worlds system of unethical vaccines we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there. So until you stop agreeing with the world I don't think we have much hope in calling people into the kingdom of God - that is a real burden to me. I don't care who is right here but the message all you vaccine supporters are sending to all my extended family who are in the world is that God has nothing more to offer than man has to offer them.

I'm confused by what you are saying here.

Are you claiming that Christians should use anti-vax messages as a form of evangelism? That the "Great Commission" should contain an anti-vax message? or else, as you put it "we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there." That seems to be to be an enormous and obscene distortion of Matthew 28. The fact of the matter is that large majorities of both Christians and non-Christians support modern medicine and vaccines.

Or, are you claiming that accepting modern medicine in the form of vaccines somehow means that God has nothing to offer humanity? Do you feel the same about say...automobiles, electricity, computers, satellites, airplanes, the internal combustion engine, solar power, etc. etc.? Those are all human inventions too. Does acceptance of those technologies mean that God has nothing more to offer? Or is it only in the field of vaccines that technological advancement threatens belief in God?

[Bootstrap]

Boot, you’ve been presented with excellent data, published research, and anecdotes. Your answer keeps being “well we can’t know for sure” or “we need to wait a few more months”.

Let me spell it out further: these are mostly unpublished studies ("prepublications"), not yet peer reviewed, and certainly not adequately summarized in literature reviews. In other words, it has not yet gone through the process that I say I consider reliable. Some of this has begun - for instance, in the FDA hearings, which I thought very good, but there are not yet adequate written records from the hearings.

In a few months, more of these studies will have been peer reviewed and there will be good literature reviews. Not much sense in us pretending we are in a position to do that ourselves. Or that we have done a good job of that here. I'd rather bow out of what feels more like a stupid fight to me and let the experts pull this together.

If you want to express that kind of uncertainty, I hear you. But will you apply the same kind of uncertainty to a vaccine that hasn’t been tested enough that we even know the data?

With respect, I think the clinical trials are in a very different stage. And the data is available. Pfizer is fully approved, Moderna soon will be.

[Josh]

Boot, you’ve been presented with excellent data, published research, and anecdotes. Your answer keeps being “well we can’t know for sure” or “we need to wait a few more months”.

Let me spell it out further: these are mostly unpublished studies ("prepublications"), not yet peer reviewed, and certainly not adequately summarized in literature reviews. In other words, it has not yet gone through the process that I say I consider reliable. Some of this has begun - for instance, in the FDA hearings, which I thought very good, but there are not yet adequate written records from the hearings.

In a few months, more of these studies will have been peer reviewed and there will be good literature reviews. Not much sense in us pretending we are in a position to do that ourselves. Or that we have done a good job of that here. I'd rather bow out of what feels more like a stupid fight to me and let the experts pull this together.

If you want to express that kind of uncertainty, I hear you. But will you apply the same kind of uncertainty to a vaccine that hasn’t been tested enough that we even know the data?

With respect, I think the clinical trials are in a very different stage. And the data is available. Pfizer is fully approved, Moderna soon will be.

If Pfizer is fully approved, why are they still dispensing their vaccine under the EUA? Comirnaty isn’t projected to be available until 2024.

We have zero idea of vaccine safety for, for example, pregnant women on a standard vaccine safety time scale (which is 8 years).

[nett]

This is my understanding so far: Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​ Cases of COVID-19 among vaccinated people have also been reported, but remain rare. There's a lot we don't know yet.

Well your understanding is just plain wrong.

Possibly. But I think waiting a few months to find out is probably more productive than what we are doing now.

I really don't get how you can throw these kind of completely inane statements out, while complaining constantly about those of us who follow the data for not "listening to experts".

With respect, I don't see you following the data in these discussions, responding to questions I ask you about the data you cite, etc. I do see you throwing around lots of strong adjectives like "inane" and misrepresenting my positions.

I think it's time for me to disengage with that.

What did I misrepresent exactly? You equated the risk of breakthrough infections and reinfections as both being "rare".

Saying breakthrough infections are rare is inane. And equating two events that at MINIMUM have a 13x different in likelihood is a false equivalence.

If you don't like being called out for being wrong, then stop saying things that aren't true.

When the Washington Post will admit it, but you won't, it's writing on the wall that you might want to re-evaluate your stance.

It's hard to communicate with you, because when I link studies, you say they're pre-print, not peer-reviewed, or if they are peer review, that we need more studies that show the same thing. You've completely immunized yourself to thinking anything contrary to narrative.

[nett]

I think some of us from growing up as atheists really see something different here. If Christian's just support the worlds system of unethical vaccines we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there. So until you stop agreeing with the world I don't think we have much hope in calling people into the kingdom of God - that is a real burden to me. I don't care who is right here but the message all you vaccine supporters are sending to all my extended family who are in the world is that God has nothing more to offer than man has to offer them.

I'm confused by what you are saying here.

Are you claiming that Christians should use anti-vax messages as a form of evangelism? That the "Great Commission" should contain an anti-vax message? or else, as you put it "we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there." That seems to be to be an enormous and obscene distortion of Matthew 28. The fact of the matter is that large majorities of both Christians and non-Christians support modern medicine and vaccines.

Or, are you claiming that accepting modern medicine in the form of vaccines somehow means that God has nothing to offer humanity? Do you feel the same about say...automobiles, electricity, computers, satellites, airplanes, the internal combustion engine, solar power, etc. etc.? Those are all human inventions too. Does acceptance of those technologies mean that God has nothing more to offer? Or is it only in the field of vaccines that technological advancement threatens belief in God?

Ken, you've voiced support for abortion, christian acceptance of homosexual marriage, and pre-marital sex. You've argued any having a set-apart church, the headship veiling, and upholding of all manner of Godly traditions. I wouldn't expect you to understand what Wade is saying here.

[Bootstrap]

What did I misrepresent exactly?

If you want to seriously explore that question, giving serious responses to what I say without lashing out or changing the subject, I would be willing to explore this question. If not, I am not interested in the fight. And unless we have that kind of discussion, I'm not terribly interested in responding to you.

Let me know if you want to pursue it.

[nett]

What did I misrepresent exactly?

If you want to seriously explore that question, giving serious responses to what I say without lashing out or changing the subject, I would be willing to explore this question. If not, I am not interested in the fight. And unless we have that kind of discussion, I'm not terribly interested in responding to you.

Let me know if you want to pursue it.

What a classic deflection. make a false accusation, then refuse to qualify it.

[Ken]

I think some of us from growing up as atheists really see something different here. If Christian's just support the worlds system of unethical vaccines we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there. So until you stop agreeing with the world I don't think we have much hope in calling people into the kingdom of God - that is a real burden to me. I don't care who is right here but the message all you vaccine supporters are sending to all my extended family who are in the world is that God has nothing more to offer than man has to offer them.

I'm confused by what you are saying here.

Are you claiming that Christians should use anti-vax messages as a form of evangelism? That the "Great Commission" should contain an anti-vax message? or else, as you put it "we have nothing more to offer for the unbelievers out there." That seems to be to be an enormous and obscene distortion of Matthew 28. The fact of the matter is that large majorities of both Christians and non-Christians support modern medicine and vaccines.

Or, are you claiming that accepting modern medicine in the form of vaccines somehow means that God has nothing to offer humanity? Do you feel the same about say...automobiles, electricity, computers, satellites, airplanes, the internal combustion engine, solar power, etc. etc.? Those are all human inventions too. Does acceptance of those technologies mean that God has nothing more to offer? Or is it only in the field of vaccines that technological advancement threatens belief in God?

Ken, you've voiced support for abortion, christian acceptance of homosexual marriage, and pre-marital sex. You've argued any having a set-apart church, the headship veiling, and upholding of all manner of Godly traditions. I wouldn't expect you to understand what Wade is saying here.

Talk to me like I'm dumb then. What is he saying?