Poll #1: Perspectives Related to the Covid Pandemic

[Wayne in Maine]

Ohio Amish Shun COVID-19 Vaccines As Officials Fear A Surge In Cases

Ohio’s Amish Suffered a Lot From COVID-19, but Vaccines Are Still a Hard Sell

Holmes county went to Yellow status after achieving a 70% vaccination rate.

The Amish haven't "suffered a lot" (the plain world is about the most gossipy there is; for a while last summer, I got to hear when anybody in a 10 mile radius might have had COVID). Their elderly people suffered far less than those in NY & NJ.

As far as "yellow status", colour codes never mattered in Holmes Co. The hospitals were never full, and people were never dropping dead in the streets. The proper way to assess the health of the Amish (note that Holmes County is not 100% Amish) is to understand the current gossip in the community and to look at the hard facts - how many obituaries are in the Budget?

My own church conference has a population roughly the same as Holmes Co., which means another way to assess this metric is to just look at obituaries in our church periodical. The death rate is basically the same as it used to be; there was a notable spike in last spring. In particular, there aren't more deaths in places with less restrictions where people are ignoring lockdown mandates vs. Canada where it is not possible to flout lockdown mandates.

You know what the worst casualty of this is, Wayne? The panic-selling of COVID and the urgency placed on an experimental vaccine has destroyed a lot of trust that was already running thin from Amish and from other plain people towards mainstream medicine and science. Whenever someone in the community gets a vaccine and then gets sick, ends up in the hospital, or dies, the news spreads like wildfire. Trust in vaccines is at an all-time low.

If you really want people to believe in science and medicine and avoid the witch doctors, you'll have to stop pushing so hard for the largest witch doctor in town. It's very unfortunate that American mainstream medicine has decided to adopt the same tactics as Girod's Chickweed Salve - the only difference is that Girod didn't go and bribe the government to exempt him from normal FDA regulation.

Brother Josh, you do not seem to be helping Plain people to drop their superstition and distrust, rather you seem to be fanning the flames and actually encouraging more superstitious beliefs about vaccines and about Government control and conspiracies.

Even where the current Covid vaccines are new and not as widely tested as some would prefer, they are better tested than the quack medicine peddled in the Budget and in local Amish stores. Braucha,reflexology, chelation, "bio-strath" "lipo-chromozine" irridology, "colloidal silver", chiropractic treatment of Aids, and other quack medicines, many dangerous, all supported by nothing but hype and third hand anecdotal evidences of efficacy. A friend of mine likely died because his chiropractor treated his heart disease and declared him cured. He died of a massive heart attack.

We might distrust the government and the medical/pharmaceutical industry on may matters. But we are not trusting God when we listen to snake oil salesmen and purveyors of health cane products and philosophies that are from spiritually dangerous and un-investigated sources. When we pedal distrust we often drive people into less trust-worthy "authorities" - I feel like you are doing that brother, and it is not service the Plain People of the world to which they should be witnessing Faith in God's Kingdom and selfless love for even their enemies.

[Josh]

Brother Josh, you do not seem to be helping Plain people to drop their superstition and distrust, rather you seem to be fanning the flames and actually encouraging more superstitious beliefs about vaccines and about Government control and conspiracies.

There is a ton of government control when 20% of my church conference can't meet for church. Sorry. That's not a "conspiracy"; they're entirely shut down and have been now for going on a year.

Even where the current Covid vaccines are new and not as widely tested as some would prefer, they are better tested than the quack medicine peddled in the Budget and in local Amish stores. Braucha,reflexology, chelation, "bio-strath" "lipo-chromozine" irridology, "colloidal silver", chiropractic treatment of Aids, and other quack medicines, many dangerous, all supported by nothing but hype and third hand anecdotal evidences of efficacy. A friend of mine likely died because his chiropractor treated his heart disease and declared him cured. He died of a massive heart attack.

Yet they're both the exact same thing. Rushing a "wonder drug" treatment and making false claims of its efficacy and then downplaying any negative news. If you speak against colloidal silver to a true believer, they have excuses why (for example) someone whose skin turns blue, well, it's their own fault. These experimental "vaccines" are the same way. Nothing other than absolute, 100% faith is acceptable now. You must be a "true believer", get vaccinated, and then encourage everyone else to get vaccinated as well. Expressing any doubt makes you one of the "bad people".

It's identical to the witch-doctor cults.

We might distrust the government and the medical/pharmaceutical industry on may matters. But we are not trusting God when we listen to snake oil salesmen and purveyors of health cane products and philosophies that are from spiritually dangerous and un-investigated sources. When we pedal distrust we often drive people into less trust-worthy "authorities" - I feel like you are doing that brother, and it is not service the Plain People of the world to which they should be witnessing Faith in God's Kingdom and selfless love for even their enemies.

I will continue to speak against quackery, non-evidence-based "medicine", and excessive amounts of trust in unreliable sources. Scepticism is a must. The medical establishment is not flawless, and their handling of this pandemic over the last year has been far from flawless. The real problem is that they're lowering themselves to the same level as certain doctors in Florida or Wisconsin.

By the way, a dear friend of mine is still in the hospital in Canada fighting for his life. He got vaccinated and within an hour couldn't breathe. I realise ancedotes are not evidence, but at this point there are plenty of anecdotes, and enough to question the narrative of "this barely-tested vaccine we spent less than a year developing and testing is 100% safe, and any side effects are something else's fault", particularly against the backdrop of "all excess deaths are due to COVID, and the sharp drop in flu deaths has nothing to do with it". When stuff as basic as that goes on, the public eventually starts to lose trust.

All that folks like you have done is make it much, much harder to deal with anti-vaxxers and point them back to on the right track. A lot of the false claims they made in the past about other vaccines are actually true with these COVID "vaccines".

[Szdfan]

Medical care in Holmes / Wayne county is phenomenal too; it’s worth (for me) driving from an hour away and skipping more local options. It really is a worthwhile question to ask why it’s so much better there.

According to some people rural health care is supposed to be really bad. The worst health care I’ve encountered was in Melbourne and Montréal, which are not exactly rural backwaters. The best I’ve encountered was in Holmes / Wayne Co. and in Coudersport, Pa,. which definitely is a rural backwater.

I'm glad you have access to phenomenal health care, but I don't believe that Holmes County or the greater Cleveland metropolitan area is universal to rural healthcare, at least not what I experience.

First of all, the fact that you have reliable transportation, flexibility in your work schedule and the resources to pay for gas so that you can easily travel an hour for healthcare is not universal.

I am fortunate that I also have the ability to travel to receive healthcare, but a lot of people in my community do not have that. My wife and I purchased flight for life insurance because the local hospital in La Junta (which used to be run by Mennonites) was downgraded from a full hospital to a crisis center and functions as a feeder to hospitals in Pueblo and Colorado Springs. Some of my former congregants live close to the local hospital and have talked about the increase in flight for life flights during the worst of the Covid outbreak here. A flight for life flight in a helicopter can cost $18,000 to $20,000, but its a necessity because the local hospital does not have the resources for the more serious medical emergencies, including serious COVID cases.

The amount of primary care physicians in my area has substantially decreased in the past ten years that I've lived here. It's not uncommon for people here to travel to Pueblo (three hour round trip), Colorado Springs (four hour round trip) and Denver (six hour round trip) to receive medical care. To just go see a doctor can take a significant amount of resources in regards to transportation, gas and time. My wife had to wait 6 months to get a local Physical Therapist because demand is so high.

Last summer, my wife's aunt was bitten by a rattlesnake. A neighbor took her to the hospital in Springfield and then she was flown to the hospital in Pueblo (it was her first time in an airborne vehicle). Local hospitals have the first dose of snake venom available, but Park View Hospital in Pueblo is the regional snake venom treatment center -- Aunt Betty had to travel about 170 miles to receive care for her rattlesnake bite. Her story is not untypical (and don't worry, she was OK. She's a tough old rancher).

So I'm glad you have access to phenomenal rural healthcare and I'm glad you have the resources to get the care you need, but that's not typical or universal for many rural communities.

[Josh]

I'm glad you have access to phenomenal health care, but I don't believe that Holmes County or the greater Cleveland metropolitan area is universal to rural healthcare, at least not what I experience.

First of all, the fact that you have reliable transportation, flexibility in your work schedule and the resources to pay for gas so that you can easily travel an hour for healthcare is not universal.

Well, I don't live in Holmes Co. - I live an hour away (and in a much larger metro area). Most people prefer here to go something a short car or bus ride away. I'm simply pointing out that Holmes/southern Wayne Co. is so good, I'll drive an hour there for it.

A lot of people in Holmes Co. don't need resources to pay for gas, they either pay a driver or use a horse and buggy. I'm not sure if you'd call that "reliable transportation" or not. And Amish employers certainly are some of the least flexible I've encountered for work schedules. A (Mennonite) friend of mine got exhausted by the 10+ hour workdays; the guaranteed time-and-a-half was nice, but being at work by 6:30am and not home until 5pm didn't suit him.

snip

I'm sorry to hear that things are looking downward in La Junta, CO. It sounds like rural communities are not being treated as well there as they are in Ohio.

That's why I'd prefer Ohio to keep being Ohio, and not have top-down rule imposed on us from what people think works best in other places. I don't want Ohio to turn into California or Colorado, where the middle class is squeezed to death and can't afford to live on $15/hr jobs. I don't want to see property become unaffordable for the working class. I don't want to see poorer people working minimum wage unable to afford their rent or the basic necessities of life.

[Valerie]

Brother Josh, you do not seem to be helping Plain people to drop their superstition and distrust, rather you seem to be fanning the flames and actually encouraging more superstitious beliefs about vaccines and about Government control and conspiracies.

There is a ton of government control when 20% of my church conference can't meet for church. Sorry. That's not a "conspiracy"; they're entirely shut down and have been now for going on a year.

Even where the current Covid vaccines are new and not as widely tested as some would prefer, they are better tested than the quack medicine peddled in the Budget and in local Amish stores. Braucha,reflexology, chelation, "bio-strath" "lipo-chromozine" irridology, "colloidal silver", chiropractic treatment of Aids, and other quack medicines, many dangerous, all supported by nothing but hype and third hand anecdotal evidences of efficacy. A friend of mine likely died because his chiropractor treated his heart disease and declared him cured. He died of a massive heart attack.

Yet they're both the exact same thing. Rushing a "wonder drug" treatment and making false claims of its efficacy and then downplaying any negative news. If you speak against colloidal silver to a true believer, they have excuses why (for example) someone whose skin turns blue, well, it's their own fault. These experimental "vaccines" are the same way. Nothing other than absolute, 100% faith is acceptable now. You must be a "true believer", get vaccinated, and then encourage everyone else to get vaccinated as well. Expressing any doubt makes you one of the "bad people".

It's identical to the witch-doctor cults.

We might distrust the government and the medical/pharmaceutical industry on may matters. But we are not trusting God when we listen to snake oil salesmen and purveyors of health cane products and philosophies that are from spiritually dangerous and un-investigated sources. When we pedal distrust we often drive people into less trust-worthy "authorities" - I feel like you are doing that brother, and it is not service the Plain People of the world to which they should be witnessing Faith in God's Kingdom and selfless love for even their enemies.

I will continue to speak against quackery, non-evidence-based "medicine", and excessive amounts of trust in unreliable sources. Scepticism is a must. The medical establishment is not flawless, and their handling of this pandemic over the last year has been far from flawless. The real problem is that they're lowering themselves to the same level as certain doctors in Florida or Wisconsin.

By the way, a dear friend of mine is still in the hospital in Canada fighting for his life. He got vaccinated and within an hour couldn't breathe. I realise ancedotes are not evidence, but at this point there are plenty of anecdotes, and enough to question the narrative of "this barely-tested vaccine we spent less than a year developing and testing is 100% safe, and any side effects are something else's fault", particularly against the backdrop of "all excess deaths are due to COVID, and the sharp drop in flu deaths has nothing to do with it". When stuff as basic as that goes on, the public eventually starts to lose trust.

All that folks like you have done is make it much, much harder to deal with anti-vaxxers and point them back to on the right track. A lot of the false claims they made in the past about other vaccines are actually true with these COVID "vaccines".

Holistic & naturopathic doctors are not "superstitious" nor use "snake oil". 2 in my town left conventional medicine/practice to become naturopathic. Chiropractic is covered by insurance these days as well. Those old assumptions & misapplication of"quackery" is revealing who really needs to learn more "preventative" care so they arr not harmed like so that causes exhorbenant costs die to malpractice suits. Literally every prescription out there when you pick it up list s all the possible harmful side effects. Who is exactly selling snake oil?

[Josh]

Valerie,

People selling a chickweed salve claiming it heals all kinds of diseases are selling snake oil.

So is someone in Mexico selling “chromosome replacement therapy” to treat “autoimmune disease”. I went door to door selling pizzas to help raise money for that treatment for a family with multiple children receiving such treatment. Made me sick to think all our effort and the community’s generosity will just like some wealthy person’s pockets.

My entire point is that crowds like Pfizer have decided to join the snake oil crowd. Forget about efficacy, just go get the vaccine. Everyone else is doing it. It’s an identical mindset to seeking “alternative” treatments that have no evidence they actually work.

[Wayne in Maine]

Valerie,

People selling a chickweed salve claiming it heals all kinds of diseases are selling snake oil.

So is someone in Mexico selling “chromosome replacement therapy” to treat “autoimmune disease”. I went door to door selling pizzas to help raise money for that treatment for a family with multiple children receiving such treatment. Made me sick to think all our effort and the community’s generosity will just like some wealthy person’s pockets.

My entire point is that crowds like Pfizer have decided to join the snake oil crowd. Forget about efficacy, just go get the vaccine. Everyone else is doing it. It’s an identical mindset to seeking “alternative” treatments that have no evidence they actually work.

Josh, I assumed you understood science better than that. Oh well. There was plenty of evidence that the vaccines developed for Covid would work, and they do. Authentic measurable evidence. But believe whatever “truth” you choose to believe.

[Valerie]

There are differing opinions about all of this, between scientists, microbiologists, and physicians. Sll educated in the sciences, yet do not all agree nor all "conventional" doctors and nurses support the vaccine, I've actually listened to, and read why. Plus Ive had some yell me face to face, nurses who WILL NOT get the shot, and doctors who do not plan to get it. And i also know many Christians who have strong convictions about not being injected with these (and they are not Amish) so really, people need to be true to their convictions.

[Josh]

Valerie,

People selling a chickweed salve claiming it heals all kinds of diseases are selling snake oil.

So is someone in Mexico selling “chromosome replacement therapy” to treat “autoimmune disease”. I went door to door selling pizzas to help raise money for that treatment for a family with multiple children receiving such treatment. Made me sick to think all our effort and the community’s generosity will just like some wealthy person’s pockets.

My entire point is that crowds like Pfizer have decided to join the snake oil crowd. Forget about efficacy, just go get the vaccine. Everyone else is doing it. It’s an identical mindset to seeking “alternative” treatments that have no evidence they actually work.

Josh, I assumed you understood science better than that. Oh well. There was plenty of evidence that the vaccines developed for Covid would work, and they do. Authentic measurable evidence. But believe whatever “truth” you choose to believe.

The objections I have raised are to the lack of sufficient time for normal vaccine testing, the complete waiver of liability from the manufacturers, the fact this is under an emergency use authorisation, and the swirl of information about severe side effects from these “vaccines” (I say “vaccines” because mRNA technology, never before tested in humans, is very different from what we think of as a “vaccine”.)

Anyone can make claims that their drug or treatment is safe and effective. That’s what every snake oil salesman does. A vaccine that has existed for under a year cannot be proven to be safe and effective.

[Wayne in Maine]

Valerie,

People selling a chickweed salve claiming it heals all kinds of diseases are selling snake oil.

So is someone in Mexico selling “chromosome replacement therapy” to treat “autoimmune disease”. I went door to door selling pizzas to help raise money for that treatment for a family with multiple children receiving such treatment. Made me sick to think all our effort and the community’s generosity will just like some wealthy person’s pockets.

My entire point is that crowds like Pfizer have decided to join the snake oil crowd. Forget about efficacy, just go get the vaccine. Everyone else is doing it. It’s an identical mindset to seeking “alternative” treatments that have no evidence they actually work.

Josh, I assumed you understood science better than that. Oh well. There was plenty of evidence that the vaccines developed for Covid would work, and they do. Authentic measurable evidence. But believe whatever “truth” you choose to believe.

The objections I have raised are to the lack of sufficient time for normal vaccine testing, the complete waiver of liability from the manufacturers, the fact this is under an emergency use authorisation, and the swirl of information about severe side effects from these “vaccines” (I say “vaccines” because mRNA technology, never before tested in humans, is very different from what we think of as a “vaccine”.)

Anyone can make claims that their drug or treatment is safe and effective. That’s what every snake oil salesman does. A vaccine that has existed for under a year cannot be proven to be safe and effective.

It is your choice to trust or not trust medical science or medical pseudoscience (or politicians). You need not take the vaccine (which has, so far proven safe and effective) - I expect no anti-vaxer ever will. But I hope you have enough respect and love that you are willing to take all the other precautions available, including masking and social distancing, to avoid being part of the chain that might kill someone's grandparents even if you don't believe this disease is dangerous.