Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

[Aurien]

Thanks for replying. It's interesting information to have. I only have one small quibble with what you said. Aurien is actually a she.

Ahhh.. Good to know. Sorry about that. All this time I was thinking you were of my gender.

No problem. I'm kind of interested to see if you reply differently to me now. I'm not implying that you're sexist or anything but I know I'm more comfortable replying to women so I thought maybe some men are more comfortable replying to men.

Edited to add: After thinking about my replies to both men and women on here I'm thinking it's not entirely accurate to say I'm more comfortable replying to women. In real life I'm more comfortable talking to women. Online I think it evens out a bit more.

[Ernie]

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

I agree with Aurien that it is problem for non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they are permanent outsiders. Wherever this happens, Mennonites have some repenting to do.
However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

I don't identify with Jan Matthys and the Muensterites, even though the authorities lumped my spiritual ancestors and the Muensterites all together and called them all Anabaptists.

I personally feel there's been enough discussion about Mennonite ethnicity on this particular thread. I'd prefer that the conversation about ethnicity moved elsewhere unless it pertains to Mark Gooch in some way.

To me it was all relevant to the topic of this thread but I can understand how that point got lost along the way.

[silentreader]

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

[Aurien]

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

What's the big deal about being accepted as Mennonite? Well I guess because when a person's part of a church or any other group it's nice to feel like they belong and nice to be treated like everyone else. When a person chooses to join a group or they're raised in that group because their parents join then I can't imagine it's too terribly comfortable always feeling like they're on the outside. Even if someone's a person who is comfortable being unique and standing out it still sometimes hurts to be treated differently.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

What's the big deal about being accepted as Mennonite? Well I guess because when a person's part of a church or any other group it's nice to feel like they belong and nice to be treated like everyone else. When a person chooses to join a group or they're raised in that group because their parents join then I can't imagine it's too terribly comfortable always feeling like they're on the outside. Even if someone's a person who is comfortable being unique and standing out it still sometimes hurts to be treated differently.

I am non mennonite background, it is approaching 6 years. I do not recall being treated differently, except being urged to get some help leading music, as we use a rotational system for song leaders. Maybe it is because I am part of the group where an NMB is no big deal. Or maybe because I have a "mennonite" last name, and I got my wife from Ohio. Or maybe because I am clueless, and will likely will remain so.

I am happy where I am.

J.M.

[Ken]

However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

We are having this discussion because there seems to be some sort of Mennonite connection to crime that has yet to be explained or investigated.

If Mark Gooch had kidnapped and murdered a Hispanic woman, or a Navajo woman then it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the religious denomination of his parents would ever enter into any sort of discussion or even investigation. It would likely be thought to be irrelevant background material.

However, in this case, it seems we have a suspect of conservative Mennonite background who drove almost 500 miles across state lines to kidnap a Mennonite woman from a VERY off-the-beaten-path church compound on a dirt road in Farmington NM. A woman who may have had some connection to his family (reportedly attended the same bible school as one of Gooch's siblings).

There has to be some connection as there is like a billion to one chance of that happening completely at random. So what is the connection? I doubt anyone knows at this point. But there has to be one. And I'm sure it will all come out at the trial.

The two most likely guesses in my mind are that (1) He has some sort of fixation or obsession with this particular woman because he came into contact with her in the past, or (2) he had some sort of trauma or abuse that he blamed on the church which led him to search out this particular victim. Or maybe some combination of the two in his psychotic mind that led to kidnapping and murder.

Either way, the church is likely to play some role in the story because it is the one thread that links both victim and suspect.

[Aurien]

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

I agree with Aurien that it is problem for non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they are permanent outsiders. Wherever this happens, Mennonites have some repenting to do.
However, we are having this discussion because there is a belief that Mark Gooch is Mennonite, that Mark is ethnic Mennonite, and that this was an "intra-ethnic act of violence".

I'm contending all three of these assumptions.

I don't identify with Jan Matthys and the Muensterites, even though the authorities lumped my spiritual ancestors and the Muensterites all together and called them all Anabaptists.

I personally feel there's been enough discussion about Mennonite ethnicity on this particular thread. I'd prefer that the conversation about ethnicity moved elsewhere unless it pertains to Mark Gooch in some way.

To me it was all relevant to the topic of this thread but I can understand how that point got lost along the way.

If you think it's all relevant to the topic of this thread then feel free to continue on. I really do think the conversation on ethnicity also warrants an entire thread of its own. I've been on MN less than a year though so I suppose it might have already been discussed in a thread at some point.

I think it's accurate to say that Mark Gooch was raised Mennonite. That still does not appear to appeal to a few people on Facebook though so I think I'll refer to him from now on as "Someone raised by parents who were members of a Mennonite church."

A couple of dozen posts back you mentioned that Mark and one of his brothers helped build your home 5 or so years ago. There have been some rumors going around Facebook that he hated Mennonites, stole from Mennonite businesses, and that his parents were excommunicated from Nationwide for not bringing him into line. So far it's all been people saying, "I heard" or "Someone said" when it comes to these rumors. I prefer something a little more concrete than that. Based on your acquaintance with Mark can you confirm or deny any of those rumors? If this crosses the line into what you feel is gossip then please feel free to say you're not comfortable answering.

[Aurien]

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

What's the big deal about being accepted as Mennonite? Well I guess because when a person's part of a church or any other group it's nice to feel like they belong and nice to be treated like everyone else. When a person chooses to join a group or they're raised in that group because their parents join then I can't imagine it's too terribly comfortable always feeling like they're on the outside. Even if someone's a person who is comfortable being unique and standing out it still sometimes hurts to be treated differently.

I am non mennonite background, it is approaching 6 years. I do not recall being treated differently, except being urged to get some help leading music, as we use a rotational system for song leaders. Maybe it is because I am part of the group where an NMB is no big deal. Or maybe because I have a "mennonite" last name, and I got my wife from Ohio. Or maybe because I am clueless, and will likely will remain so.

I am happy where I am.

J.M.

Maybe it's all of the above? From comments you've made on other threads though it does sound like you've found a pretty good church group.

[silentreader]

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

What's the big deal about being accepted as Mennonite? Well I guess because when a person's part of a church or any other group it's nice to feel like they belong and nice to be treated like everyone else. When a person chooses to join a group or they're raised in that group because their parents join then I can't imagine it's too terribly comfortable always feeling like they're on the outside. Even if someone's a person who is comfortable being unique and standing out it still sometimes hurts to be treated differently.

I remember seeing Trudy's family at the Mennonite church they attended. I remember thinking that her father was dressed...different. I don't recall that it made me uneasy, but then, even though an ethnic Mennonite, I knew I didn't quite fit in either. I have no idea how her father and Trudy's family was treated there, but if he didn't feel welcome, do you believe that was the reason things were the way they were or had that been going on for a long time and there was actually no church where he could feel accepted?

[Aurien]

So which is most important?
We had a man in our community who was a murderer.
He was born and grew up in an Old Order Mennonite home, his Old Order father and possibly one or more of his Old Order siblings were at his trial and or sentencing. When he was growing up a lot of his Old Order peers thought he was "scary". He left the Mennonite church as a youth. He had some, but little contact with other ex-Mennonites. If anybody who didn't know him met him on the street, they would have had no reason to suspect he was of Mennonite background, unless he spoke and they recognized the "shtank twang". He probably was completely off the Mennonite radar, he moved to the West for a while, until one day he was in the news as a double murderer as well as for conspiracy to kill an under-cover police officer.
But he was still an ethnic Mennonite, I guess, all appearances to the contrary. He certainly did all he could to not appear as an ethnic Mennonite. He killed his live-in wife and their daughter, but that was only the second generation I guess.
So at the Judgement Seat will he be judged differently because he was an ethnic Mennonite?
Why the big deal about being accepted as MENNONITES? So you can identify with an ethnic Mennonite like this, for instance?

What's the big deal about being accepted as Mennonite? Well I guess because when a person's part of a church or any other group it's nice to feel like they belong and nice to be treated like everyone else. When a person chooses to join a group or they're raised in that group because their parents join then I can't imagine it's too terribly comfortable always feeling like they're on the outside. Even if someone's a person who is comfortable being unique and standing out it still sometimes hurts to be treated differently.

I remember seeing Trudy's family at the Mennonite church they attended. I remember thinking that her father was dressed...different. I don't recall that it made me uneasy, but then, even though an ethnic Mennonite, I knew I didn't quite fit in either. I have no idea how her father and Trudy's family was treated there, but if he didn't feel welcome, do you believe that was the reason things were the way they were or had that been going on for a long time and there was actually no church where he could feel accepted?

I don't know enough about Trudy's father to even make much of a guess at that. I know he was abusive but that's about the extent of my knowledge. If I HAD to venture a guess then I'd say it might have been a combination of those two things. I really don't know though.