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AndersonD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:03 pmAnother thread could be a poll on how many people think there is a peaceful 2 state solution after 75 years of quarrelling.

The real question is whether there is ANY solution after 75 years of quarreling. And if there is, what it looks like.

Personally I have yet to see any other solution proposed that is not some form of a 2-state solution.

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:49 pm I'm curious if you're aware that Hamas and Co want the Jews eradicated, not just moved out of the country...? Anti-semitism is inherently about the people, not the place...

I don't think that's true. Arab attitudes toward Jews were quite different before Jews started taking over the land that Arabs lived in and evicted them from their homelands. And committing more atrocities toward Arabs will not reduce the level of anti-Semitism.

But given the fact that Hamas does officially want to wipe them off the map, what would you do, if you were in Netanyahu's shoes? Personally, I would want to be negotiating a real peace with the Palestinias, but I would refuse to negotiate with Hamas. They would have to choose a different representative for the negotiations.

And I would avoid creating more shockingly traumatic images of bombs destroying homes and killing children. Those images are not going to help come to peace when the war is over.

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:45 pm

AndersonD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:42 pm

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:49 pm I'm curious if you're aware that Hamas and Co want the Jews eradicated, not just moved out of the country...? Anti-semitism is inherently about the people, not the place... None of these conflicts are justified for the Christian, but it seems a bit simplistic, if not also disingenuous, to imply that the issue (and a potential resolution, peaceful solution, etc) is simply about land in this case... It's "drive the Jews into the sea", not "drive the Jews back to Europe". And nothing is ever mentioned about swimming lessons first.

I am always looking for simple solutions. Allow the Jews to immigrate into the US where they are safe and protected, and adios to a Jewish nation.

More Jews live in the U.S. than in Israel and many have dual citizenship. For whatever reasons they want to have their own country and many are willing to fight this out.

It is sort of like if we Mennonites were attempting to retake southern Ukraine / new Russian territory as our “homeland”.

Apples and oranges, or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. We Menno descendants have no cultural memory nor ethnic identity tied to God promising us the land that is southern Ukraine....

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:28 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:45 pm

AndersonD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:42 pm
I am always looking for simple solutions. Allow the Jews to immigrate into the US where they are safe and protected, and adios to a Jewish nation.

More Jews live in the U.S. than in Israel and many have dual citizenship. For whatever reasons they want to have their own country and many are willing to fight this out.

It is sort of like if we Mennonites were attempting to retake southern Ukraine / new Russian territory as our “homeland”.

Apples and oranges, or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. We Menno descendants have no cultural memory nor ethnic identity tied to God promising us the land that is southern Ukraine....

We aren't in the old dispensation anymore, bro. You premillennial or something?

AndersonD wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:39 pm

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:28 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:45 pmMore Jews live in the U.S. than in Israel and many have dual citizenship. For whatever reasons they want to have their own country and many are willing to fight this out.

It is sort of like if we Mennonites were attempting to retake southern Ukraine / new Russian territory as our “homeland”.

Apples and oranges, or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. We Menno descendants have no cultural memory nor ethnic identity tied to God promising us the land that is southern Ukraine....

We aren't in the old dispensation anymore, bro. You premillennial or something?

Unashamedly. Nevertheless, that's sort of irrelevant to the fact that the Jewish people in 2023 do still have that cultural memory/identity of the land being promised to them by God, whereas we Anabaptist folk have no such cultural memory/identity based upon a promise. And the Jewish folks still hold that identity today regardless of whether we as Christians think God promised it to them under one dispensation or another or in perpetuity or whatever.

There has been the hope and even preparations to "go back to Israel" (specifically Jerusalem) for the Jewish people since the time they were taken away from it. British Jews were putting money into a "rebuild the temple" fund at least already in the 20's (one hundred years ago). Some of the Mennonites in Russia were also pooling funds and making plans to go help rebuild the Jewish homeland already in the mid 1800's, or at least by the 3rd quarter of that century. That is the only place the Jews have ever had a homeland. The Palestinians are not descendants of the Philistines, the Jebucites, etc.

As for Ukraine, that is only the last "stopping place" in the Long Trek of my people. Retaking a homeland? Where would that be? We have no 'holy sites' anywhere, but going as far back as I know for my own Mennonite ancestors it would be the Low Countries, mainly what is now Holland. But probably part of me would need to "go back to Prussia" (now a part of Poland), the place after Holland.

There are only two places in this world I consider 'home' (other than to some extent where I am now) - Oklahoma, and the village along the Kitia and Yatifa rivers, in Brazil. (As they used to say back home in Oklahoma, "Home is where you hang your hat." Maybe they still do, I don't know. But I'm "hanging my hat" on a peg someplace next to Jesus. My people have "just been passing through" for centuries.)

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:28 pm More Jews live in the U.S. than in Israel and many have dual citizenship. For whatever reasons they want to have their own country and many are willing to fight this out.

It is sort of like if we Mennonites were attempting to retake southern Ukraine / new Russian territory as our “homeland”.

Apples and oranges, or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. We Menno descendants have no cultural memory nor ethnic identity tied to God promising us the land that is southern Ukraine....
[/quote]

And that has zero bearing on whether or not 1 group of people really had a right or it was sensible for them to go and drive out people who'd been living in the Levant for dozens of generations. And actually, many Russian Mennonites do have cultural memory and ethnic identity tied to what was then Russia. They settled the land from scratch - nobody was even living there. They were the first settlers.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:49 am More Jews live in the U.S. than in Israel and many have dual citizenship. For whatever reasons they want to have their own country and many are willing to fight this out. It is sort of like if we Mennonites were attempting to retake southern Ukraine / new Russian territory as our “homeland”.

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:28 pmApples and oranges, or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. We Menno descendants have no cultural memory nor ethnic identity tied to God promising us the land that is southern Ukraine....

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:49 amAnd that has zero bearing on whether or not 1 group of people really had a right or it was sensible for them to go and drive out people who'd been living in the Levant for dozens of generations. And actually, many Russian Mennonites do have cultural memory and ethnic identity tied to what was then Russia. They settled the land from scratch - nobody was even living there. They were the first settlers.

While I realize your downplay here is an attempt to defend your analogy, God making a promise to the Jews really is a whole different sort of cultural memory than sentimental feelings about our ancestors first settling land in the Ukraine/Russia. And it actually has a significant bearing on the issue at hand - the Jews consider the land their birthright by the mouth of God, not because of their own hard work on some nice Russian ground they were invited to farm... I take back the Granny vs Golden - it truly is apples to oranges.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:09 pm

Heirbyadoption wrote:Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:49 pm I'm curious if you're aware that Hamas and Co want the Jews eradicated, not just moved out of the country...? Anti-semitism is inherently about the people, not the place...

I don't think that's true. Arab attitudes toward Jews were quite different before Jews started taking over the land that Arabs lived in and evicted them from their homelands. And committing more atrocities toward Arabs will not reduce the level of anti-Semitism.

It is true.
FBI came out yesterday with warnings that similar attacks may happen in the USA. Reasons they are ra.ping up security.

Have you seen rhe thousands of illegals caught at our southern border from the Arab nations with terrorists? Young men? Why? They hVe quite a list of numbers for ones they caught. What about all the 'gotaways' that weren't caught. Why so many men from these countries entering in the USA 'open' border?

In my experiences of living through multiple wartimes, it is not a good usage of personal time and energies to second-guess leadership nor tactics. War is a highly fluid, ever-changing dynamic. Decisions are based upon military intelligence and battle conditions. Therefore I look at the facts from the perspective of military leadership and tactics.

Facts:
-Israel was attacked viciously from Gaza by Hamas terrorists. Iran is the author and coordinator of the attacks and has vowed to destroy Israel.
-Gaza is being used as a distraction for Israeli troops.
-Iran has Hezbollah ready to invade from the northern border and take Jerusalem/Israel while Israel's troops are distracted in Gaza.
-Hence Israel is slowing the advance on Gaza territory to reinforce their northern positions. Israel is not buying into the distraction.
-With the slowing of Israeli advancement, Hamas is now taunting Israel with vids of the hostages in order to enrage Israel so that they will continue to advance into Gaza, leaving the Israeli northern borders weakened and vulnerable to Iran's Hezbollah.

This is what is known at this point.