Miller Farms fined

[Josh]

The listeria outbreak caused significant damage to the reputation and livelihoods of farmers who sold "Rocky Ford melons," even though the melons came from a farm ninety miles away. Along with new federal regulations, the Rocky Ford Growers Co-Op Association took steps to protect their brand name and added additional melon washing equipment to prevent another outbreak.

This isn't the same thing; this sells directly to its own co-op members first. (If those members in turn sell them via conventional grocery stores, that's a different matter.)

I could also post story after story about large, corporate-owned commercial operations with food-safety outbreaks and disease outbreaks. The majority of foodborne illness has come from commercial, conventionally grown food. Would you accept an argument from me that all conventional, for-profit owned large farms need replaced with organic, GMO-free, co-op based small independent farms?

[Szdfan]

The listeria outbreak caused significant damage to the reputation and livelihoods of farmers who sold "Rocky Ford melons," even though the melons came from a farm ninety miles away. Along with new federal regulations, the Rocky Ford Growers Co-Op Association took steps to protect their brand name and added additional melon washing equipment to prevent another outbreak.

This isn't the same thing; this sells directly to its own co-op members first. (If those members in turn sell them via conventional grocery stores, that's a different matter.)

I could also post story after story about large, corporate-owned commercial operations with food-safety outbreaks and disease outbreaks. The majority of foodborne illness has come from commercial, conventionally grown food. Would you accept an argument from me that all conventional, for-profit owned large farms need replaced with organic, GMO-free, co-op based small independent farms?

No. My wife works in agriculture as a plant breeder. She would agree that the food system is broken and would argue that the food monopolies hurt farmers. She's also anti-organic and pro-GMO. I don't think what you're arguing for would produce a sufficient amount of food to meet demand.

[Josh]

No. My wife works in agriculture as a plant breeder. She would agree that the food system is broken and would argue that the food monopolies hurt farmers. She's also anti-organic and pro-GMO. I don't think what you're arguing for would produce a sufficient amount of food to meet demand.

The idea that "everyone will starve if we stop using GMOs!" comes from big ag; GMOs were rare until fairly recently. Mexico is completely banning GMO corn, because importing GMO seeds from the U.S. is destroying their native corn industry (the place where corn itself was discovered, and edible breeds created).

The only people who might have to eat less if we move off GMOs are Monsanto executives; they'll have to skip their $3,000 Wagyu filet and go for a sirloin at Outback instead.

[Szdfan]

No. My wife works in agriculture as a plant breeder. She would agree that the food system is broken and would argue that the food monopolies hurt farmers. She's also anti-organic and pro-GMO. I don't think what you're arguing for would produce a sufficient amount of food to meet demand.

The idea that "everyone will starve if we stop using GMOs!" comes from big ag; GMOs were rare until fairly recently. Mexico is completely banning GMO corn, because importing GMO seeds from the U.S. is destroying their native corn industry (the place where corn itself was discovered, and edible breeds created).

The only people who might have to eat less if we move off GMOs are Monsanto executives; they'll have to skip their $3,000 Wagyu filet and go for a sirloin at Outback instead.

I forwarded your responses to my wife. She points out:

1) Since Monsanto doesn't exist anymore, then their non-existent executives shouldn't have a problem with that.

2) Yes, people will become increasingly food insecure if conventional agriculture ceases to exist. For example, we can't afford to buy the 8 oz of cheese at the co-op at a regular basis. I add: conventional agriculture is efficient at creating large amounts of food, the idea that the organic farmers at the farmers market can produce enough food efficiently is absurd.

[Josh]

No. My wife works in agriculture as a plant breeder. She would agree that the food system is broken and would argue that the food monopolies hurt farmers. She's also anti-organic and pro-GMO. I don't think what you're arguing for would produce a sufficient amount of food to meet demand.

The idea that "everyone will starve if we stop using GMOs!" comes from big ag; GMOs were rare until fairly recently. Mexico is completely banning GMO corn, because importing GMO seeds from the U.S. is destroying their native corn industry (the place where corn itself was discovered, and edible breeds created).

The only people who might have to eat less if we move off GMOs are Monsanto executives; they'll have to skip their $3,000 Wagyu filet and go for a sirloin at Outback instead.

I forwarded your responses to my wife. She points out:

1) Since Monsanto doesn't exist anymore, then their non-existent executives shouldn't have a problem with that.

I could have said "Bayer", but most people wouldn't know why I'm talking about an aspirin brand in references to Big Ag. Sort of like how I refer to SCR dairy equipment, because nobody who is serious talks about Merck making milking machines.

(Interestingly, Bayer is going to stop selling Roundup to consumers in 2023 out of fear of future lawsuits, but they say they have "no safety concerns". The bottle sitting in my garage bears the Monsanto branding, still.)

2) Yes, people will become increasingly food insecure if conventional agriculture ceases to exist. For example, we can't afford to buy the 8 oz of cheese at the co-op at a regular basis. I add: conventional agriculture is efficient at creating large amounts of food, the idea that the organic farmers at the farmers market can produce enough food efficiently is absurd.

Conventional agricultural (which really isn't "conventional", most of it is quite recent) is only good at making the rich even richer. People weren't starving to death in the 1960s or 1980s.

Jeremy, do you really think things like mass hay production in Kansas using underground aquifers are a good idea? Are concentrated animal feeding operations a good idea? Do you think 6-barn chicken barns with 50,000 birds per barn, all mass vaccinated, are a good idea? Do you like the way beef feedlots are run?

Are 6,000-head dairy farms a good idea? Does it make sense to have a 6,000-head dairy and then rely on a truck route on a 6 hour drive from Michigan to Ohio to find the nearest dairy plant with demand?

Do you think planting Roundup Ready corn and then blanketing fields in herbicide is a good idea?

People didn't starve en masse in the 1960s, and most of what I described above involves agricultural exports. The rest of the world can feed itself without the U.S. running giant Big Ag operations. (I don't believe in American exceptionalism or supremacy.)

[ohio jones]

Conventional agricultural (which really isn't "conventional", most of it is quite recent) is only good at making the rich even richer. People weren't starving to death in the 1960s or 1980s.

You mean when my mom talked about those starving children in Africa they weren't really starving, and there was no need to finish my plate of zucchini to help them? Or are you referring only to the US?

[Josh]

Conventional agricultural (which really isn't "conventional", most of it is quite recent) is only good at making the rich even richer. People weren't starving to death in the 1960s or 1980s.

You mean when my mom talked about those starving children in Africa they weren't really starving, and there was no need to finish my plate of zucchini to help them? Or are you referring only to the US?

Based on the fundraising letters I get from CAM, they’re still starving.

[nett]

obviously a rather one-sided source, but this article has the most comments from Amos of any I read. He's in big trouble again.

https://ourorganicwellness.com/amish-fa ... -own-meat/

[steve-in-kville]

He has been in the local paper almost solid for months now. He's confusing persecution with prosecution. A few people locally tried to do the same thing and it never took off.

ETA- there for a while he tried the sovereign citizen thing with the judge. Didn't go well....

[RZehr]

He has been in the local paper almost solid for months now. He's confusing persecution with prosecution. A few people locally tried to do the same thing and it never took off.

ETA- there for a while he tried the sovereign citizen thing with the judge. Didn't go well....

People are sometimes quick to recognize a monetary conflict of interest in big business, but it is also present in small business. When a large business wants deregulation is it highly suspect; When a small business wants deregulation, it is being persecuted.

Personally, from a faith standpoint, I think he is in the wrong. From an economic and public well-being standpoint, I'd like to see regulation modified to allow him to do what he is doing.