Biblical Justice, Social Justice, Black Lives Matter

[Soloist]

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But I do think repentance affects the way we live, and right now I think there is often a kind of white grievance and paranoia within some sectors of Christianity that we need to repent of. And if we are going to be critical of black grievance, I suspect that we white Christians should probably worry about white grievance first before casting stones at someone else.

Not pointing fingers at plain Mennos here, but at white Christians who embrace white grievance narratives. I don't think Christianity is compatible with that. As someone who works with refugees, I may be especially sensitive to this. I think the Bible has a lot to say about refugees and foreigners and our moral responsibility to them.

I had a discussion with a coworker about something along the line of this... he was upset that some guy got yanked out of his car and beat by a BLM group blocking a road. I cautioned that we likely didn't have the full story from a one sided clip and he argued with me as I pointed out examples of the media using false narratives on both sides. We progressed to were he thought it was okay to run people over if they blocked the road and shoot them if they threatened him. We spoke on forgiveness and mercy and he said he didn't need to show them mercy or forgive them and if he shot them, God would forgive him. The disconnect was horrifying.

One thing I've noted before is that there are very few democratic Christians that retain Biblical truth, the same is true for republicans like my coworker. Who you listen to, you become.

[Bootstrap]

I think you are right in thinking this has to do with your understanding of democracy. I think this is another place plain Mennonite would think differently. We are not so sure that democracy is actually good for Christians in America. Oh yes, we know exactly what you mean, and we share your appreciation for the good. But when we weigh the positive against the negative, the scales balance is a bit hazy. Yet in the end we would agree that we prefer living in a democracy. But given Christianity's history, we are going to be slow to extol the spiritual health benefits that a rotting, secular democracy has on holy living and spreading the gospel. We are wary, just a little bit, deep down. This is not necessarily completely democracy specific. I have no doubt that Christians the world over have serious reservations about their government and its mechanisms, whether it is communist, theocratic, or a secular kingdom. Each style probably has something about it that threatens Christians in one way or another.

I agree with a lot of this.

I have some contact with Christians from various parts of the world. As you might expect, they are pretty diverse, but on the whole, I wonder if the center of gravity is shifting. Christianity is declining in the West and growing in many other parts of the world. I have friends in other countries who wonder what is up with American Christianity. I suspect that the effort we put into equipping Christians in other countries may be extremely important, and I wouldn't be surprised if some other part of the world eventually plays the role America has as a particularly strong home for Christianity.

Still, I think democracy is mostly a good thing. Especially when it cares about protecting the rights of people. Oh, let me rephrase that without the word "rights", which may be a red flag for you: especially when it comes to treating people fairly, with respect, without trampling on them, without sinning against them. I don't know how you can violate people's rights without doing these things.

We have the right to be different and to speak out. We need that right.

I have the responsibility to be different, regardless of whether a government grants me that right or not. The government giveth, and taketh away. But in both cases we are going to be different, we don’t need that right since we are going to obey God anyway, no matter what the government says. (Yes, my natural self does appreciate the governments lack of persecution.)

Amen. And someday we may continue this conversation in the prison cell we share. If nothing else, that would give us lots of time to talk this out ... it might have advantages over MN.

[Bootstrap]

For the most part, I don't think the New Testament gives clear guidelines on this kind of thing. There's a part of me that identifies with Old Testament prophets speaking out in the face of injustice.

I think there is guidelines in the NT that much of what we do is based on. And I think it is better to identify with how Jesus and the apostles operated and taught instead of OT heroes, who were operating under the old covenant.

I think it is best to look at both, reading the Old Testament and the apostles in light of Jesus, reading the New Testament in light of the Old Testament.

Jesus had a real concern for people who were treated badly by "fine religious authorities", who often implied that he was less than righteous because he hung out with the wrong kind of person, saying he did not know what kind of person he was dealing with, and he spoke up for them. Paul stood up for the Gentiles against Peter, and not gently. James scolds the church for treating rich people better than poor people. Within the church, at least, treating each other well and fairly seems to be important, and that seems to reach beyond uniform groups like the Jews or the Gentiles, the body of Christ is more than any of our individual fellowships. For what it's worth, that's one reason I am less "separated" than some plain Mennos.

Peter and Paul went into the major population areas, reaching out to diverse groups of people. It was messy, they had to struggle with various sins that crept in from the outside. They also had to struggle with the self-righteousness of others who did not want to accept these new brethren. That's another reason I am less "separated".

But there has always been value to having some Christians who are separated - monks, plain Mennos, etc - reminding us to be pure and devoted to Jesus. In general, I think it's just important to focus on living out our own calling, and to be aware of which differences are rooted in core teachings of the Bible versus different traditions and preferences and callings.

When it comes to speaking to government, that simply wasn't a major focus in the New Testament. The march to Jerusalem was a confrontation with the government, Paul used his Roman citizenship to insist on his right not to be tortured, but there was nothing like an organized protest against government. At the same time, the New Testament does not condemn the zealots who fought government or the Essenes who escaped it to live in pure and isolated communities, the main condemnation seems to fall on the Pharisees and Sadducees who lived out their faith in various degrees of compromise with the government and tended to be very judgemental of people who were shut out of the Kingdom because of that. I'm not quite sure what to learn from that.

And I don't know how this changes in a democracy, where Christians can actually have political power. To what extent should we use this against injustice and oppression or to lift up the disadvantaged? And how? This wasn't terribly possible in the Roman Empire, it may be possible in modern America.

[RZehr]

Not all of what we do is great. Not all of our thinking is always straight. While I agree with much, can see the thinking in most, I’m not trying to say that we have it together, I was trying to sort of explain some of the rational, some of the reasons that you aren’t seeing plain Mennonites marching and beating drums. Oh ya, drums wouldn’t jive with acapella standards either.

[Bootstrap]

Not all of what we do is great. Not all of our thinking is always straight. While I agree with much, can see the thinking in most, I’m not trying to say that we have it together, I was trying to sort of explain some of the rational, some of the reasons that you aren’t seeing plain Mennonites marching and beating drums. Oh ya, drums wouldn’t jive with acapella standards either.

This has been a good conversation, and you have explained well. My last post was not meant to say that you have it wrong, but to explain how I see it and practice it. In some threads, people have suggested that my approach is at odds with the Bible.

Some have also implied that I am telling people to get out on the streets and protest - I am not, and I have not done that. But I am reluctant to judge people who are out there if they are protesting genuine injustice and doing so nonviolently. And I think it is important to be hungering and thirsting for righteousness, to mourn and grieve for the poor and vulnerable. In prayer. In the way we live our lives. And I think it is important to have our hearts open to others in compassion. As I read the New Testament, Jesus was like that, and so were his followers. Though the Holy Spirit had to keep nudging them in that direction.

[Ken]

Black Lives don't matter so much in Harrison Arkansas

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[RZehr]

Me: “Lots of racists is Arkansas.”
My 10 yr old says, What’s a racist?
12 year old. It’s when people don’t like people that are different color.
6 Year old. That’s stupid.

So simple. Out of the mouth of babes.