Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

[Aurien]

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.

I agree with Ernie's assessment. True acculturation usually takes about 3 generations.

So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.

We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites. In some of my writings, I discuss some of the hurdles between non-ethnic Anabaptists and Anabaptist background folks. I think second generation Anabaptists often struggle with many of the same things as their parents, however since it is was their parents choice to convert, they have the additional struggle of whether to make the same choice as their parents. Again, this applies to any cultural transition, not just a transition to Anabaptism.

If the child of a radicalized Muslim blew up a building of westerners, I would say the radicalized Muslims could and should take credit for this since that is what results from their teaching and doctrine. If a child of a peace-promoting Muslim blew up a building, I would not attribute that to the peace-promoting Muslims at all. If a third or fourth or fifth generation child of a peace-promoting Muslim blew up a building, I would not attribute that to the peace-promoting Muslims either. I would not refer to this child as a peace-promoting Muslim.

When I asked Joshua what that made me I was referring to his statement about true acculturation taking 3 generations. So I was asking him where I fell in the ethnic Mennonite category.
So out of curiously I'll ask you the same question then. Ethnically speaking what would you have considered my siblings and I to be since my father was first generation Mennonite and my Mother comes from a long line of Mennonite ancestors? Also what would you consider my niece to be since my brother who's still CA married a CA woman who also comes from a long line of Mennonites?

[Aurien]

All this ethnic talk is really discouraging and makes me to never want to be a Mennonite and glad I am not one...

Titus 3:9

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

That verse reminds me of The Mennonite Game. I don't know if you've heard of it but It's when Mennonites try to find out who each other's relatives are because the chances are good that you'll find out that you both know a person or that you're distantly related to each other. I used to HATE it when my mom and Mennonite ladies who visited our church would do that. I became interested in genealogies a couple years back and after researching my mom's family I think it's kind of fun to find connections between her ancestors and other people's ancestors.
I always felt like an outsider in the Mennonite community even though I was born and raised in a Mennonite church so I think I can understand how someone who's a seeker or a first generation Mennonite can feel very left out of some things.

[ABC 123]

The not holding any cards in the Mennonite game is akin to being picked last at dodge ball.

[Ernie]

So out of curiously I'll ask you the same question then. Ethnically speaking what would you have considered my siblings and I to be since my father was first generation Mennonite and my Mother comes from a long line of Mennonite ancestors? Also what would you consider my niece to be since my brother who's still CA married a CA woman who also comes from a long line of Mennonites?

Yes. Or you could say "Aurien" is an ethnic Mennonite on his mother's side.
I did a bit of googling and they say it takes 6 generations of marrying into an ethnicity until the original ethnicity is less than 1%.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-generati ... ones-genes
https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/que ... -up-in-dna

Technically my 3 generations probably applies more to assimilation and acculturation then it does to ethnicity.
But for the sake of conversation about Mennonites, my observation is third generation folks don't notice anything different about themselves as compared with the others they go to church with. That is what I am thinking of when I refer to ethnic Anabaptists. This of course can vary from one congregation to the next.

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

[Wade]

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.

So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.

We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites.

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

[Aurien]

So out of curiously I'll ask you the same question then. Ethnically speaking what would you have considered my siblings and I to be since my father was first generation Mennonite and my Mother comes from a long line of Mennonite ancestors? Also what would you consider my niece to be since my brother who's still CA married a CA woman who also comes from a long line of Mennonites?

Yes. Or you could say "Aurien" is an ethnic Mennonite on his mother's side.
I did a bit of googling and they say it takes 6 generations of marrying into an ethnicity until the original ethnicity is less than 1%.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-generati ... ones-genes
https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/que ... -up-in-dna

Technically my 3 generations probably applies more to assimilation and acculturation then it does to ethnicity.
But for the sake of conversation about Mennonites, my observation is third generation folks don't notice anything different about themselves as compared with the others they go to church with. That is what I am thinking of when I refer to ethnic Anabaptists. This of course can vary from one congregation to the next.

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

Thanks for replying. It's interesting information to have. I only have one small quibble with what you said. Aurien is actually a she.

[silentreader]

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.

So if my father was NMB and my mother was born into a long line of Mennonites then what did that make me? I was talking to my mom the other day about the controversy over whether Mark Gooch was Mennonite or not and she said, tongue in cheek, that if he wasn't Mennonite then she guesses that my siblings and I are/were only half Mennonite.

We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites.

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

[Aurien]

I'm sorry Wade. I just now see I posted after you did. Don't bother to read this if it seems out of line.


We are talking about when a person becomes an ethnic Mennonite, not a Mennonite. A person can become a Mennonite whenever he wishes. There is a belief component to being Mennonite. There is a cultural component for many people who become Mennonite, and there is an ethnic component for many Mennonites.

No need to apologize, it doesn't seem out of line at all. How you have differentiated between ethnic and Mennonite is helpful.

I can understand someone claiming that a child raised in a Mennonite setting whose parents weren't originally raised Mennonite could not be considered ethnic Mennonite, but I can't fully accept it is automatically 3 generations or that that child was not more greatly influenced by Mennonite culture than another culture. But neither can I know what that families home life was like? - Which I believe would have the biggest influence.

To some people ethnic Mennonite homes are full of abuse because that was the context they were raised with and even if they know others that didn't experience the abuse they did they still may struggle to see the positive aspects of other ethnic homes - so by definition that is what an ethnic Mennonite home maybe to them.
Likewise some ethnic Mennonite homes are full of love and so that is how those people that are now adults define ethnic Mennonites and struggle relating to those who claim Mennonite homes have abuse or are critical and unloving.

The benefit I have in growing up in a non-Christian/non-Mennonite home is that if I take the words of Christ seriously in forsaking all I can sometimes more easily accept new traditions and perspectives without attaching those traditions to a negative experience because I don't have those negative experiences in my upbringing in relating them to a Christian or Mennonite home. And also when I paid attention to the uncomfortableness I may feel it really was just self-centered... When I let go of that it is easy to feel comfortable - I don't mind not having much to add to the conversation in real life if others know each other better - it is enjoyable listening in and being encouraged while not being the center of attention.

And my experience with the local CA Pastor was him asking a bit about my ancestry. It was this quick: I said local loggers for over the past 100 years on my dads side and where we came from before that - I don't know, my dad says a fair bit of German, English and a lot of others. And my mom's side are farmers from Saskatchewan with coming from English, French, Irish and some others. But I'm not really all sure beyond that and shrugged my shoulders.
And he said, "So genealogies aren't a problem for you then. Good!"

I like this too:

For the record, I don't really care who is ethnic and who is not. I speaking simply about the ability to assimilate into a different culture.
Those of you who have followed my church planting visions know that I look forward to seeing the establishment of plain churches, similar to conservative Anabaptists, that are primarily non-ethnic Anabaptist. Once these churches are established, they will develop their own culture and newcomers will need to assimilate into whatever culture these churches become.

I guess I am completely baffled as to what the big deal is about being or being accepted as an ethnic Mennonite, if that is what we focus on, either as In or Out, then we are focusing on the wrong thing.
Any ethnic Mennonite who does not accept you as a Christian solely because you are not an ethnic Mennonite is not a Christian. Why would you want to be part of that?

I don't think the problem is with ethnic Mennonites accepting a person as a CHRISTIAN. It's about accepting them as a MENNONITE. It's about ethnic Mennonites unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) causing non-ethnic Mennonites to feel as though they're perpetual outsiders.

[Aurien]

I personally feel there's been enough discussion about Mennonite ethnicity on this particular thread. I'd prefer that the conversation about ethnicity moved elsewhere unless it pertains to Mark Gooch in some way.

[Ernie]

Thanks for replying. It's interesting information to have. I only have one small quibble with what you said. Aurien is actually a she.

Ahhh.. Good to know. Sorry about that. All this time I was thinking you were of my gender.