Debt forgiveness

[Josh]

“Blessed are the people whose God is the Lord.” The best thing for the economy is a people who follow God’s ways.

A big part of God’s ways are reconciliation, forgiveness, and restoration. The story of Jesus is one where we owe a huge debt, and Jesus intervenes on our behalf, repaying it in full.

Now I’m not saying to go use other people’s money to negate student loans. But I think lifetime debt bondage is not something Christian people would want to be profiting from, and that’s what the modern student loan system basically is.

[Robert]

But I think lifetime debt bondage is not something Christian people would want to be profiting from, and that’s what the modern student loan system basically is.

The challenge is God also teaches people by consequences. When we remove a consequence, we are removing a person's chance to learn. I would agree that lifetime debt is not good, but college is not mandatory. People do choose it. Society convinces people that it is a good choice. Society also convinces people that alcohol use is a good thing. In moderation, it is not bad, but one can become addicted by too much use and it becomes a lifetime consequence too, as many addictions.

We do need to be forgiving, but to remove someone's consequence may get in God's way of teaching a person the reason why their actions are wrong.

The call is for us to be forgiving individually and as a group. It does not call to society and we must be careful not to project to the world what we, as followers of Jesus, are called to do. We are to be a light and set apart.

[temporal1]

i heartily agree with Robert’s points. ^^

Josh,
.. Now I’m not saying to go use other people’s money to negate student loans.

But I think lifetime debt bondage is not something Christian people would want to be profiting from, and that’s what the modern student loan system basically is.

i mostly agree with you, Josh.
i would add, FINANCIAL EDUCATION, with balanced Christian understanding, esp the parts that BOTH lenders and borrowers are to be responsible stewards, is a significant and tangible way churches might reach out to the world.

of course, some Christians “get it wrong,” but, you know, wrong can’t be prevented. it happens.
i think it’s a mistake to choose to do nothing because it might not end with perfect results.

i suppose it’s similar to my view of Kanye West. he’s new to Christianity. he’ll make mistakes.
but he is attempting to touch hearts and spread Truth.

The Holy Spirit will determine what comes of his efforts. i believe that.

This forum is an example.
Different members are here with experiences of faith missteps that eventually brought them here.
Some go. Some stay. Some come+go.

The Holy Spirit determines outcomes.

One starting place, that many are devoted to, is the “crazy” idea that,
“NOT EVERYONE NEEDS A 4 YEAR UNIVERSITY DEGREE.”

Talk about “curve balls” in societal thinking:

Just prior to the 2007-2009 bank failures, Oprah was still a big, active leading TV voice.
At that time, SHE was promoting the idea of,
“ADVANCED DEGREES FOR ALL.” Masters and Doctorates. i am not exaggerating.

At that time, money (debt) was freely flowing, it was “A BIG IDEA.” She liked her big ideas.
Banks crashed, that push was silenced.

Christians can relay the message, “government is not God,” be cautious, don’t confuse.

Profiteers will not educate in healthy balance, not even on secular terms.
They educate to ultimately ensure more profits for themselves.
Nothing different should be expected. That would be utterly naive.

The message that “everyone needs a 4-year degree” underwritten with gov loans became a big degree-manufacturing boom; banks were the designated winners. Banks INTEND to profit. Sole intent.

Turning the societal tide, choosing balanced financial education, is monumental.
Banks and politicians will not do that. Families and churches can.

[temporal1]

i wrote:
.. Talk about “curve balls” in societal thinking:

Just prior to the 2007-2009 bank failures, Oprah was still a big, active leading TV voice.
At that time, SHE was promoting the idea of,
“ADVANCED DEGREES FOR ALL.” Masters and Doctorates. i am not exaggerating. ..

In my life, i witnessed valuable high school diplomas morph into, “just basic requirement” to exist, then go for the more valuable 4 year degree. That was a big change in history.

Watching Oprah push this idea of “advanced degrees for all,” had me wondering if 4 year degrees were about to go the way of high school diplomas??! it seemed about to happen.

The big bank failures slowed many ambitious ideas, i think for the overall best.
Consumerism was off the rails.

Certainly, multiple degrees and advanced degrees are important+valued in today’s job market.
But, had Oprah’s vision become a reality, wow. What would we be looking at today?!

i shudder to imagine.
today’s awful student loan debt might look like “baby debt” had her ideas come to pass.

[Josh]

Simply put, the Bible doesn’t speak fondly about lifetime debt bondage.

I think student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy has a lot of consequences. Of course, doing so would mean the student loan racket and universities would also have to start being responsible.

I don’t care for this talk of “individuals need to bear consequences” until the large institutions, and the powerful, wealthy people benefitting from them, also face consequences.

[barnhart]

Simply put, the Bible doesn’t speak fondly about lifetime debt bondage.

I think student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy has a lot of consequences. Of course, doing so would mean the student loan racket and universities would also have to start being responsible.

I see a lot of truth here. Student loans represent a massive wealth transfer from people with negative net worth to those "holding" the loans. Presumably most are held by mutual funds and pension plans, who tend to be those nearing retirement age and have higher than average net worth. I doubt this is a sound long term economic strategy. Once enough students default so as to threaten the capacity of student debt to perform reliably, then you will see political support for debt relief that guarantees investment. The suffering of students will not produce much sympathy, but if the capacity of commoditized student debt to perform on the financial markets is compromised, then you will see action. I recently had a conversation about this with a retired man who mocked the presidential candidates who support no tuition college or student debt relief. I asked how he paid for his college education and he was quick to say he earned it and paid as he went with summer jobs. When I suggested higher education could be subsidized to the point that a student could pay the remainder with summer jobs, he didn't have much to say.

I don’t care for this talk of “individuals need to bear consequences” until the large institutions, and the powerful, wealthy people benefitting from them, also face consequences.

Indeed, some balance would be in order.

[temporal1]

Simply put, the Bible doesn’t speak fondly about lifetime debt bondage.

I think student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy has a lot of consequences.

Of course, doing so would mean the student loan racket and universities would also have to start being responsible.

I don’t care for this talk of “individuals need to bear consequences” until the large institutions, and the powerful, wealthy people benefitting from them, also face consequences.

i’ve tried to address the wrongs of gov-guaranteed corporate profits in this thread.
banks, with the way student loans are structured, are amoral. money lenders .. have-not-changed.

what’s changed is people demanding through FREE VOTES, that they become oppressed.
so many are blind to reality, to what their free choices are doing! that’s a problem.

it’s one thing to blame an oppressor.
it’s another to beg (to vote) to be oppressed, then to complain about the results.

crazy legal protections and guarantees for corporations, has become a financial monster in Congress, and, it may be the biggest driving force behind the DNC madness to unseat and destroy DJT .. i suspect it is.

let’s face it, Congress has no authentic moral high ground over DJT.
but, they’re sure needled over something.

i suspect corporate lobbies in Congress may be comparable to cartels in South America, just not (yet) identified as such. CORPORATE LOBBIES invest huge sums, they aren’t doing so as an idle pass time. they expect RESULTS.

hillary is a prime example. her “benefactors” had to be BEYOND ANGRY she lost in 2016, imagine the pressure she has felt as a result. something’s going on. something is driving that old woman away from retirement and grandmotherhood.

Elizabeth Warren sporting her PP corporation scarf at U.S. presidential inaugurations is a clue.

mark my words.
IF there is a big debt forgiveness event, BANKS will pounce on the opp to see that the craziest laws ever are crafted (largely in stealth) to ensure even more profits to themselves, on the backs of others.
banks and billionaires are NOT going to lose. they didn’t get where they are via charity.

people will be trapped, and will not know what hit them.
they will have voted for it, so, they’re at an unfortunate disadvantage. when one votes for something that goes wrong, it’s hard to admit grave error. it seems, the most common response is to deny, and double-down.

churches and families could focus on balanced scriptural financial education.
offering classes to the outer community might be a way to share Gospel. i.e., begin with a tangible common interest, offered as a needed service.

as Robert repeats in this thread, debt is STILL voluntary.

i agree, pressures to take on debt are certainly unfair! but, bottom line, as hard as it is,
as with any addiction, prayer, authentic education, not education of the drug pusher, and FREE WILL can muscle-through and resist temptation.

churches and families do not have the power of Madison Avenue and Wall Street to sell their purpose.

.. but. the mustard seed.

[temporal1]

”Millions in crushing medical debt — gone. All thanks to these churches”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 286600001/

”Indiana church pays off almost $8 million in medical debt for thousands of families”
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending-now ... 995919249/

”Chicago churches join growing movement of congregations paying off medical debt”
https://religionnews.com/2019/10/28/chi ... ical-debt/

[temporal1]

“Church Pays Off $10,000 of Walmart Layaway Accounts for Families Ahead of Christmas”
https://www.faithwire.com/2019/12/12/ch ... christmas/

[temporal1]

OP, Page 1:

If there is large scale, rare,
(once a generation?)
debt forgiveness put in effect, would society and its economy enjoy net benefit or not?
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/5-00 ... 00406.html

.. Rulers weren’t motivated by charity, Hudson says.
They were being pragmatic -- trying to make sure that citizens could meet their own needs and contribute to public projects, instead of just laboring to pay creditors.

And it worked, he says.
“Societies that canceled the debts enjoyed stable growth for thousands of years.’’ ..

i’m doubtful today’s “of the moment” mentality is able to grasp even 1 thousand years.
it’s (maybe not possible) to compare today’s comfortable, well-fed, entitled populations to ancient peoples.

The idea of churches paying others’ debt, and/or negotiating to “settle” debts, is interesting.
It may come closer to what Jesus was addressing. Less about committing others to debt forgiveness.

This is hitting closer to home.
How many would want their churches, using their church treasury, to take on big tasks like that?

The OP article notes various fair questions, one is about fairness to those who sacrificed to pay their own debt; i’m not sure if the GI BILL was mentioned, but, fairness to those who traded military service for help with higher education (working before buying).

Of course, Jesus is not concerned with fairness in ways we tend to think. From a Christian view, that sort of human-centric fairness is irrelevant. Giving is to be without conditions, or expectations of repayment.

Gov and banks will NOT take Jesus’ view, and they did not in ancient history (quote above).